LouDobbsAwaaaay: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm sure that was very comforting to any of the endless victims of atrocities inflicted by the US government.

It's not meant to be. It's a refutation of your false equivalence between leaving the catholic church in protest of their corruption versus renouncing US citizenship over their corruption.

Try again.

Analogies are analogies because they share an equivalent relationship. They are not intended to be identical things. So yeah, you can point out ways in which the Catholic Church is different than the US Government. But the key idea I'm trying to convey is that by being a member of either - you are supporting the organization you belong to.

The fact that the US Government is a (sorta) democracy doesn't change that relationship.

If you prefer, we could use any of the other similar, but different, things I listed as examples - like working for a particular company or in a particular industry - those things are also not democracies. Or the US military - that's also no a democracy.

But in all of the situations I've listed by being a member you are contributing to the whole of the organization. If being a member of an organization makes you guilty of the crimes perpetuated by some of the organization or by the organization as a whole - all Americans, all US Military and almost all employees are guilty of some pretty horrible things.

But you are correct, I can't name a single thing that is exactly like being in the Catholic Church - except being in the Catholic Church.

Copper Spork: Church has jurisdiction over the clergy, and that they aren't accountable to secular governments. For that matter, it's "word of God" that democracy is a bad form of government, and that a strong monarchy or similar system should be advocated. Other core principles include denying access to contraceptives to poverty-stricken women, s

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What the fark am I reading?

david_gaithersburg: Don't know about the Jesus thing, not into that stuff. But I do know that I dislike pompous know it all twats who are always pushing their atheist beliefs on everyone.

Does this "I'm not religious or anything but grrrrr atheists make me so mad!11!1" thing ever actually fool anybody? It's like when street-preachers bring a college kid with them to campus so he can rap with the students and give them the down-low on how Jesus is funky-fresh and super-fly. Word.

Fark_Guy_Rob: lilplatinum: Fark_Guy_Rob: At the very least, it's easy enough to leave the US where your day-to-day activities no longer directly support the US government. I live overseas; I'll pay nothing in income tax the US government and none of the various taxes like property tax or sales tax will go to the US government.

Being an ex-pat does not get rid of your tax burden, Uncle Sam still demands a share of money you make abroad unless you are poor.

Beyond that - it's not that hard to renounce US citizenship
(http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens hip/citizenship_776.html)

It is not that hard to renounce US citizenship, it is fairly difficult to acquire a replacement citizenship- hence renunciation not being realistic for most people.

So long as my income is less than 95k USD - Uncle Sam won't see any of it. I wouldn't consider 95k per year 'poor'.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/i nternational/article/0,,id=97130 , 00.html

I also wouldn't say it's *that* difficult to get another citizenship if you are determined. The key is to be willing to go to whatever country is handing out visas/work permits at the time. Once you are legally in a country, most of the time, it's just a waiting game until you can become a citizen. I don't know the details but I know Australia and Canada are the big destinations for people here (Ireland) and I know some of them are unskilled labour.

If you are skilled labour, particularly in certain fields - you really can go just about anywhere you want; so long as you can talk your way through a job interview.

Looks like I make more than you.

/you seem like a very well rounded person and your comments are generally insightful
//your comments in the bike thread yesterday were some of the best, but I didn't want to get involved in that CF of a thread by bringing that out.

At the end of the day, I just want some cold beer and a woman to have sex with.

Thank you and Happy Easter.

Copper Spork: INeedAName: Which is stuff that should be hated. But find me where this guy supported or engaged in those activities? Some Farkers need to learn that not all individuals agree with everything the organization they belong to does.

So if he'd been a Grand Wizard of the KKK, you'd be OK with that?

That's a tenuous b.s. argument at best. If he had been Grand Wizard of the KKK and spoke openly against racism then yes, it would be okay.

Dr King Jr. belonged to a religious organization that spent hundreds of years using the Bible to say it was okay to keep people as slaves, and that black people didn't deserve the same rights. Boy it's a good thing he just walked lock-step with everyone else, right?

fluffy2097: Bedstead Polisher: I've never been taught not to use birth control, nor that homosexuality was wrong or any of that stuff.

My crew doesn't murder people so no gangs murder people!

I definitely don't get my point across as eloquently as many that I agree with in this thread, but I just meant to point out that my experience is probably not what is expected from the Catholic Church, but... it happened.

david_gaithersburg: Copper Spork: Church has jurisdiction over the clergy, and that they aren't accountable to secular governments. For that matter, it's "word of God" that democracy is a bad form of government, and that a strong monarchy or similar system should be advocated. Other core principles include denying access to contraceptives to poverty-stricken women, s

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What the fark am I reading?

You should read "Quanta Cura" and "Syllabus Errorum", and note that the former is "Ex Cathedra".

poorcku: YOu are not the brightest, are you now? You are not even backpedaling elegantly. A second ago you said the guy deserved cancer because he was member of a group you don't approve of. Now you are attacking a foreign culture because the zeitgeist 200 years ago wasn't pretty. And as for joining the military, I don't think you have the balls for it. You would rather be tied up to a tree, protesting nuclear reactors.

What foreign culture did I attack, or are you going to add lying to your repiotoire in addition to incoherence. Keep in mind that the US is not a foreign culture for me, being an American. Also, why would you protest nuclear reactors? That is just stupid and it doesn't have anything to do with trees. You really are a mouth breather, aren't you?

themeaningoflifeisnot: Ok, so you denounce all Catholics, right? Any current Catholic who voluntarily adheres to the Catholic faith despite knowing about Church abuses and/or who supports the Roman Catholic church financially is an inherently bad person who should not be appreciated for any good deeds she does because of her faith?

Willingly financially supporting a reprehensible organization does kind of make you a shiatty person, yes.

Fark_Guy_Rob: So long as my income is less than 95k USD - Uncle Sam won't see any of it. I wouldn't consider 95k per year 'poor'.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/i nternational/article/0,,id=97130 , 00.html

95k ain't that much money, especially when the dollar-euro exchange rate is as shiatty as it is at the moment.

It is also a bit harder to swap citizenships than you make it out. Yes, it is possible for wealthy white professionals, but it is in no way, shape, or form on the same level of choosing to join or leave a religious organization.

AnyName: Gonz: What are you going to do between now and the day they throw six feet of dirt over you?

Right now I'm making blueberry muffins and banana bread

Last summer I perfected a wheatless blueberry and pear cake. Divine.

Fark_Guy_Rob: Analogies are analogies because they share an equivalent relationship. They are not intended to be identical things. So yeah, you can point out ways in which the Catholic Church is different than the US Government. But the key idea I'm trying to convey is that by being a member of either - you are supporting the organization you belong to.

The fact that the US Government is a (sorta) democracy doesn't change that relationship.

It most certainly does. One organization allows for dissent and action by citizens to change the organization's course of action. The other claims to be infallible and changing its mind is taboo. They don't share an equivalent relationship. QED.

If being a member of an organization makes you guilty of the crimes perpetuated by some of the organization or by the organization as a whole - all Americans, all US Military and almost all employees are guilty of some pretty horrible things.

But you are correct, I can't name a single thing that is exactly like being in the Catholic Church - except being in the Catholic Church.

Two strawman arguments.

Try again.

Copper Spork: david_gaithersburg: Copper Spork: Church has jurisdiction over the clergy, and that they aren't accountable to secular governments. For that matter, it's "word of God" that democracy is a bad form of government, and that a strong monarchy or similar system should be advocated. Other core principles include denying access to contraceptives to poverty-stricken women, s

.
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What the fark am I reading?

You should read "Quanta Cura" and "Syllabus Errorum", and note that the former is "Ex Cathedra".

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You should read your state's laws regarding confinement for mental observation.

I'm off to have a nice day with my family and friends. Enjoy your lack thereof.

david_gaithersburg: You should read your state's laws regarding confinement for mental observation.

Well, I agree that Catholics are mentally ill, but I think confining them for that is a bit harsh.

Now, confining them for conspiring to cover up child rape, that's a different issue.

david_gaithersburg: You should read your state's laws regarding confinement for mental observation.

I'm off to have a nice day with my family and friends. Enjoy your lack thereof.

"Fark you, I'm leaving!"

Go get your shine-box.

Fark_Guy_RobI also wouldn't say it's *that* difficult to get another citizenship if you are determined. The key is to be willing to go to whatever country is handing out visas/work permits at the time. Once you are legally in a country, most of the time, it's just a waiting game until you can become a citizen. I don't know the details but I know Australia and Canada are the big destinations for people here (Ireland) and I know some of them are unskilled labour.

Well, that sounds delightful. I have always dreamt of living permanently in any ole country that is handing out work visas.

Copper Spork: david_gaithersburg: You should read your state's laws regarding confinement for mental observation.

Well, I agree that Catholics are mentally ill, but I think confining them for that is a bit harsh.

Now, confining them for conspiring to cover up child rape, that's a different issue.

We are all on the same page that child molestation is a terrible thing and the people involved deserve to be brought to justice. This however does not make all Catholics guilty.

Onagarf: I'm an atheist, and what I see here is a decent man facing his end with dignity.

Precisely. And yet many self-described "enlightened" atheists will mock and taunt this man, and then wonder why nobody takes them seriously or is willing to engage them.

INeedAName: We are all on the same page that child molestation is a terrible thing and the people involved deserve to be brought to justice. This however does not make all Catholics guilty.

There were probably some nice Nazis as well, it doesn't make the willful association with their organization any less reprehensible.

GoldSpider: Onagarf: I'm an atheist, and what I see here is a decent man facing his end with dignity.

Precisely. And yet many self-described "enlightened" atheists will mock and taunt this man, and then wonder why nobody takes them seriously or is willing to engage them.

I neither mock nor taunt this person. I just wonder why he continued to support the Catholic Church after it was revealed that they work tirelessly to get pedophiles fresh victims and silence the atrocities. If that makes it unable to take me seriously or un-engageable, that says a lot more about you than it does about me, imo.

PenguinTheRed: Copper Spork: 2.bp.blogspot.com

[i271.photobucket.com image 640x362]

/fixed

...and here's yet another knob who can't tell the difference between communism and atheism.

/laughinggirls.jpg

lilplatinum: INeedAName: We are all on the same page that child molestation is a terrible thing and the people involved deserve to be brought to justice. This however does not make all Catholics guilty.

There were probably some nice Nazis as well, it doesn't make the willful association with their organization any less reprehensible.

Look, I'm not going to stand here and argue in favor of the Nazis but I would wager most of them had no effin clue what was going on at Dachau. Are you just purposefully being ignorant at this point for the purpose of argument?

I can no more judge all oh humanity by your viewpoint and actions than I can judge all Catholics by the actions of some of them.

INeedAName: Look, I'm not going to stand here and argue in favor of the Nazis but I would wager most of them had no effin clue what was going on at Dachau. Are you just purposefully being ignorant at this point for the purpose of argument?

I can no more judge all oh humanity by your viewpoint and actions than I can judge all Catholics by the actions of some of them.

I actually give the Nazis a little more leeway than the Catholics because 1) it was not really realisitcally possible to oppose the Nazis without danger to your livelihood/life and 2) it wasn't as painfully obvious what scum they were because a lot of their crimes were, as you pointed out, out of sight.

The Catholics, however, have neither of those excuses. If you support a horrid organization, being a swell fella doesn't somehow excuse your horrible choice.

INeedAName: Look, I'm not going to stand here and argue in favor of the Nazis but I would wager most of them had no effin clue what was going on at Dachau. Are you just purposefully being ignorant at this point for the purpose of argument?

Are you suggesting that Catholics can claim to have no effin clue about the child rape scandals at this point? Are you just purposefully being ignorant at this point for the purpose of argument?

LouDobbsAwaaaay: If that makes it unable to take me seriously or un-engageable, that says a lot more about you than it does about me, imo.

If you aren't attacking this man personally, I've got no beef with you.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: GoldSpider: Onagarf: I'm an atheist, and what I see here is a decent man facing his end with dignity.

Precisely. And yet many self-described "enlightened" atheists will mock and taunt this man, and then wonder why nobody takes them seriously or is willing to engage them.

I neither mock nor taunt this person. I just wonder why he continued to support the Catholic Church after it was revealed that they work tirelessly to get pedophiles fresh victims and silence the atrocities. If that makes it unable to take me seriously or un-engageable, that says a lot more about you than it does about me, imo.

The reason you are un-engageable is because you make hyperbolic claims like this one. Certainly elements within the church were involved in a conspiracy to cover it up, and who knows, maybe there were even groups of people who brought little boys in the father's offices to satiate his appetite.

There is absolutely no evidence that all Catholics got a memo that said 'Hey, we're going to rape some little boys, drop your kids off around 5 and we'll be done with 'em by 7. Don't tell anyone.'

How can you not see a difference in what actually took place and what you claim? Certainly a rational person can understand this? Are am I just being epically trolled?

lilplatinum: INeedAName: Look, I'm not going to stand here and argue in favor of the Nazis but I would wager most of them had no effin clue what was going on at Dachau. Are you just purposefully being ignorant at this point for the purpose of argument?

I can no more judge all oh humanity by your viewpoint and actions than I can judge all Catholics by the actions of some of them.

I actually give the Nazis a little more leeway than the Catholics because 1) it was not really realisitcally possible to oppose the Nazis without danger to your livelihood/life and 2) it wasn't as painfully obvious what scum they were because a lot of their crimes were, as you pointed out, out of sight.

The Catholics, however, have neither of those excuses. If you support a horrid organization, being a swell fella doesn't somehow excuse your horrible choice.

I don't, at any point, or in any way support what took place. But you seem to equate 'being a Catholic' with being 'pro child molestation.' That kind of blanket statement is woefully ignorant.

He urged them to serve the needs of the poor and those with special needs.

Christian in name only!

INeedAName: The reason you are un-engageable is because you make hyperbolic claims like this one.

While that's guilt-by-association taken to an extreme, there's a valid underlying question in there.

INeedAName: I don't, at any point, or in any way support what took place. But you seem to equate 'being a Catholic' with being 'pro child molestation.' That kind of blanket statement is woefully ignorant.

How many Catholics are talking to their priests and asking them things like "WTF is going on here?" or "What are YOU doing to fight this?"

INeedAName: I don't, at any point, or in any way support what took place. But you seem to equate 'being a Catholic' with being 'pro child molestation.' That kind of blanket statement is woefully ignorant.

When you willfully choose associate yourself with an organization that is engaged in disgusting actions, at some point you bear some guilt for their actions. Especially when said organization is insanely easy to disassociate yourself with. There are plenty of other sky fairy salesmen that don't support pederastry and HIV proliferation.

GoldSpider: Onagarf: I'm an atheist, and what I see here is a decent man facing his end with dignity.

Precisely. And yet many self-described "enlightened" atheists will mock and taunt this man, and then wonder why nobody takes them seriously or is willing to engage them.

I'm an atheist. I don't consider myself especially "enlightened". I'm just trying to find my way in the dark like the rest of you. And I'm an atheist mostly because I've never felt the presence of God in my life. And if there is a God, he doesn't believe in me either.

But that poor dying priest, he got it right. The haters here need to attack that dick in another thread who thinks Christians are being persecuted.

INeedAName: The reason you are un-engageable is because you make hyperbolic claims like this one. Certainly elements within the church were involved in a conspiracy to cover it up, and who knows, maybe there were even groups of people who brought little boys in the father's offices to satiate his appetite.

There is absolutely no evidence that all Catholics got a memo that said 'Hey, we're going to rape some little boys, drop your kids off around 5 and we'll be done with 'em by 7. Don't tell anyone.'

How can you not see a difference in what actually took place and what you claim? Certainly a rational person can understand this? Are am I just being epically trolled?

You're not being trolled. You are just inflating what you claim my argument is in order to make it look silly. It's called argumentum ad absurdum, and it's a logical fallacy.

The Church's sex scandal is pervasive. Of course not every individual Catholic is part of it, but it taints every level of the Church's hierarchy. It's well-known how long the child-rape has been occurring, how international the scandal is, the cover-ups at even the highest levels, the inability to take blame (the recent report from the Church's internal review claims the child rape (which began in the 50's) is the fault of the hippy counter-culture of the 60s), the moving of known pedophile priests from one place to another when the heat was on, and the pay-offs to victim's families to keep them silent.

Trying to hide behind an absurd inflation of my argument to dodge all of that is hardly honest.

GoldSpider: INeedAName: I don't, at any point, or in any way support what took place. But you seem to equate 'being a Catholic' with being 'pro child molestation.' That kind of blanket statement is woefully ignorant.

How many Catholics are talking to their priests and asking them things like "WTF is going on here?" or "What are YOU doing to fight this?"

I don't know, but I have to assume the number isn't 0. I work with church youth. I get finger-printed and a federal background check done on myself, and anyone else who wants to volunteer.

If someone even suggests I did something inappropriate I would be immediately removed from my position and either put on leave or outright dismissed while an investigation took place and charges were filed. This same process occurs for everyone working within our church structure from a Sunday School volunteer to the conference bishop.

/I'm Methodist if it matters

lilplatinum: poorcku: YOu are not the brightest, are you now? You are not even backpedaling elegantly. A second ago you said the guy deserved cancer because he was member of a group you don't approve of. Now you are attacking a foreign culture because the zeitgeist 200 years ago wasn't pretty. And as for joining the military, I don't think you have the balls for it. You would rather be tied up to a tree, protesting nuclear reactors.

What foreign culture did I attack, or are you going to add lying to your repiotoire in addition to incoherence. Keep in mind that the US is not a foreign culture for me, being an American. Also, why would you protest nuclear reactors? That is just stupid and it doesn't have anything to do with trees. You really are a mouth breather, aren't you?

themeaningoflifeisnot: Ok, so you denounce all Catholics, right? Any current Catholic who voluntarily adheres to the Catholic faith despite knowing about Church abuses and/or who supports the Roman Catholic church financially is an inherently bad person who should not be appreciated for any good deeds she does because of her faith?

Willingly financially supporting a reprehensible organization does kind of make you a shiatty person, yes

So, as an adult, you have never accepted treatment in a Catholic-affiliated hospital and would never consent to be treated by a doctor or nurse who is of the Catholic faith.

And because of your views of ordinary Catholics, you will not befriend them, break bread with them, drink with them, or voluntarily associate with them in any way, right?

And because of your views of ordinary Catholics, you do not believe that they should ever be recognized or thanked for any good deeds they individually have done because they support an organization that has permitted and covered up abuses, right?

Ok, so I assume that you are equally vigilant about not doing business with any German individual whose family status is derived, even in part, from a forebears' voluntary membership in the National Socialist German Workers' Party? And you make sure that you do not accept money from any German person or company that owns wealth that was derived, even in small part, from a forebears' Nazi membership and beliefs. Because, under your theory, even if Hitler's Nazis no longer exist as an organization, there are plenty of Germans, German families, and German corporations that can trace their current status in society and their wealth back to terrible atrocities and thefts by their recent ancestors.

And don't forget the Jews believe in a god that's not yours and, according to some Palestinians and Muslims, they have committed many atrocities in the pursuit of their faith. So you have to strike each individual Jew off the list of your friends because they ascribe to a belief system that excludes non-believers, discriminates against non-believers, and has, institutionally, persecuted others.

Maybe it's a good thing you're in Germany. I imagine it isn't hard for you to find others who are comfortable viewing people as homogeneous groups wherein every member is equally responsible for the perceived wrongdoings of every other member of the group. Those old-style Germans whose kids you hang out with had a great knack for ignoring the individuals in favor of negative stereotypes. I'll bet you're quite at home in the Fatherland.

Bit'O'Gristle: Don't get me started on the Catholic church, but this guy sounds like a real class act. Never acted like he was better than others, told people he didn't know how heaven looked, said others prayers are just as effective as his. Led a great and happy life, and seemed much loved. I would have liked to have known him, he just sounded like a nice friendly helpful guy.

RIP Sir.

Most Priests are truly selfless, genuinely caring people. But... to me at least... that makes the whole thing even more sad. The organization, at its heart, is awful... maybe even evil. The priests are like a candy coating over a fatally poisonous pill. Or Judas goats, leading others to their slaughter.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: INeedAName: The reason you are un-engageable is because you make hyperbolic claims like this one. Certainly elements within the church were involved in a conspiracy to cover it up, and who knows, maybe there were even groups of people who brought little boys in the father's offices to satiate his appetite.

There is absolutely no evidence that all Catholics got a memo that said 'Hey, we're going to rape some little boys, drop your kids off around 5 and we'll be done with 'em by 7. Don't tell anyone.'

How can you not see a difference in what actually took place and what you claim? Certainly a rational person can understand this? Are am I just being epically trolled?

You're not being trolled. You are just inflating what you claim my argument is in order to make it look silly. It's called argumentum ad absurdum, and it's a logical fallacy.

The Church's sex scandal is pervasive. Of course not every individual Catholic is part of it, but it taints every level of the Church's hierarchy. It's well-known how long the child-rape has been occurring, how international the scandal is, the cover-ups at even the highest levels, the inability to take blame (the recent report from the Church's internal review claims the child rape (which began in the 50's) is the fault of the hippy counter-culture of the 60s), the moving of known pedophile priests from one place to another when the heat was on, and the pay-offs to victim's families to keep them silent.

Trying to hide behind an absurd inflation of my argument to dodge all of that is hardly honest.

I did nothing to inflate your claim, you actually said 'the Catholic church works tirelessly to get pedophiles fresh victims...' If you didn't mean it that way, that's fine. I'm responding to what you presented.

I get that you and LilPlatinum are angered and repulsed by this. We all should be. I get that, from your perspective continuing to stay with the Catholic church is a sign that people don't dislike it enough to make some noise. I get it, I hear it, I understand it.

Please stop using hyperbole to get your point across. The more outrageous and extreme a point someone tries to make, the less it gets heard. You two both seem to have valuable things to say, but if my guy reaction is to shut you out, then I can guarantee you're not getting through to the pervasive majority of Christians the world over.

If your goal is to be heard, think about how you're speaking.

INeedAName: I did nothing to inflate your claim, you actually said 'the Catholic church works tirelessly to get pedophiles fresh victims...' If you didn't mean it that way, that's fine. I'm responding to what you presented.

Incorrect. You are responding to the inflated claim that every individual member of the Catholic church works tirelessly to get pedophiles fresh victims, which is not the same thing and is easier to attack. Argumentum ad absurdum. QED.

The rest of your post is you soap-boxing about your argumentum ad absurdum, so I'm omitting it since it is moot. If you want to actually discuss what I said instead of your hyperbolic version of it, I'm here. But until you do, you are simply avoiding the real conversation because you don't have a leg to stand on. When people are wrong they tend to retreat into predictable avenues of fallacious argumentation, and while I understand that it is frustrating for me to explicitly point out where you are doing it, I don't apologize for it.

Kome: I didn't exactly find anything in there all that inspiring. There is no joy in sickness or suffering or death. So don't glorify it, because watching a loved one die sucks, dying in agony because of some incurable disease, never knowing when you wake up just how much pain you'll have to endure that day, these are not joyful things. They are terrifying things, they are awful things. That's why you're at the doctors in the first place, to try and get experts who actually know something about life and death to help mitigate and manage your poor circumstances. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging life sucks when life sucks.

Everything else in there is platitudes that are ripe for after school species and the attempt at a serious life lesson on a sitcom, so it's hard to take it seriously.

THIS

i don't normally complain about Fark articles, poor headlines or what have you but this was lame. Easter notwithstanding, lame, lame lame.

Thisbymaster: And here the atheists will show their true colors, constantly shiatting on everything. No matter how uplifting or good, watch and weep as the same extremists that tarnish the records of other groups come and tarnish yours.

Whats uplifting about lying to people?

So he's got nothing to lose - maybe he could human up, call out the pope and the rest of the catholic religiocracy (trademark pending) to

• permit men and women alike to lead congregations
• denounce and defrock kid molesters
• accept and celebrate that sometimes men love men and women love women openly and respectfully
• divest - put their money where their mouth is (please - no wisecracks)

Until then I'll remain convinced that it's not about love, it's about money, and it's not about faith, it's about power and job security

/anything good I might have to say about the RCC is negated by the silence of it's members in the face of the above, because argue all you like, their silence and inaction equals complicity

Every muslim is not a terrorist, every catholic priest is not a pedophile, and every atheist is not a dick. This guy's last sermon was not filled with religious derp, so cut him a little slack.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: INeedAName: I did nothing to inflate your claim, you actually said 'the Catholic church works tirelessly to get pedophiles fresh victims...' If you didn't mean it that way, that's fine. I'm responding to what you presented.

Incorrect. You are responding to the inflated claim that every individual member of the Catholic church works tirelessly to get pedophiles fresh victims, which is not the same thing and is easier to attack. Argumentum ad absurdum. QED.



If you agree with me that not every individual member of the Catholic church was involved, then maybe you should stop blaming every individual member. The guy in the article, and a majority of Catholics around the world had nothing to do with any of it.

lilplatinum: INeedAName: Look, I'm not going to stand here and argue in favor of the Nazis but I would wager most of them had no effin clue what was going on at Dachau. Are you just purposefully being ignorant at this point for the purpose of argument?

I can no more judge all oh humanity by your viewpoint and actions than I can judge all Catholics by the actions of some of them.

I actually give the Nazis a little more leeway than the Catholics because 1) it was not really realisitcally possible to oppose the Nazis without danger to your livelihood/life and 2) it wasn't as painfully obvious what scum they were because a lot of their crimes were, as you pointed out, out of sight.

The Catholics, however, have neither of those excuses. If you support a horrid organization, being a swell fella doesn't somehow excuse your horrible choice.

So, you will defend Nazis who killed millions, including experimenting and torturing little children before gassing them, on some theory that it was understandable for millions of Nazi party members to stand by while their fellow members committed genocide.

And you're willing to disregard the fact that millions of German people--Nazis and non-Nazis knew about the Holocaust and resettlements and seizures of Jewish property and wealth AS THEY WERE HAPPENING and yet did nothing to interfere with the attempt to kill every member of the Jewish race (along with many other people who didn't fit the Aryan mold).

But you can't find it within you to look at the good and kind things a humble man has done to improve the lives of many others because a minority of his priest colleagues committed crimes that the Church covered up.

Yeah, that's a nice world view you have. You love and defend those who were aware of but did nothing to stop outrageous Nazi atrocities, including the societal shunning of even little Jewish children before they and their families were dragged out of their homes and killed, yet you think a simple and kind priest is evil merely because he's Catholic.

Enjoy Easter you Jew-hating, Nazi loving defender of the mass killing of innocents. The Catholics among us are likely perfectly happy that you refuse to associate with us.

INeedAName: If you agree with me that not every individual member of the Catholic church was involved, then maybe you should stop blaming every individual member. The guy in the article, and a majority of Catholics around the world had nothing to do with any of it.

I don't blame every individual member for raping children. I do, however, blame every individual member for continuing to support the organization that continues to rape children and hide their crimes, when they know precisely what is going on. You can't simultaneously believe that God is a kind and loving being AND that these sick farks are working on his behalf.

I want to dress up in a burka and go to the creationist museum in Tennessee

lilplatinum: I actually give the Nazis a little more leeway than the Catholics because 1) it was not really realisitcally possible to oppose the Nazis without danger to your livelihood/life and 2) it wasn't as painfully obvious what scum they were because a lot of their crimes were, as you pointed out, out of sight.

The Catholics, however, have neither of those excuses. If you support a horrid organization, being a swell fella doesn't somehow excuse your horrible choice.

Giving the Nazis more credit than the Catholics. oooook. I suggest looking up Psychosis in DSM-IV. That is what you have.

AbbeySomeone: Coelacanth: If there were more priests like him, we would have none of the insanity that torments us all today.

The Heavenly Choir awaits you father. Godspeed.

True.

Not by any objective definition of the word "true."

Enough with the pedophile Priest comments. I think the score is in favor of pedophile teachers

Darth Vader Ginsburg: Enough with the pedophile Priest comments. I think the score is in favor of pedophile teachers

It'll be "enough" when the Catholic Church stops protecting them and shuffling them off to other areas to reoffend. No school board defends pedophiles. The church does.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: INeedAName: If you agree with me that not every individual member of the Catholic church was involved, then maybe you should stop blaming every individual member. The guy in the article, and a majority of Catholics around the world had nothing to do with any of it.

I don't blame every individual member for raping children. I do, however, blame every individual member for continuing to support the organization that continues to rape children and hide their crimes, when they know precisely what is going on. You can't simultaneously believe that God is a kind and loving being AND that these sick farks are working on his behalf.

I don't. In fact I think man is thoroughly flawed and I don't think "[those] sick farks" are doing anything on His behalf. I will not, however, condemn the entire group of people simply for continuing to be practicing Catholics.

I think the idea that everyone knows everything what's going on is giving far too much credit to a very disparate church system. Most people almost certainly believe 'it won't happen in my church,' and as the real loyalty is to your local church, and not as much to the international RCC, I can understand their sentiment.

Again, I don't think your feelings are wrong, but I think you speak far too broadly and do yourself a disservice in the way you form your arguments.