There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

They shouldn't be kept out. Like it or not, it was an era, it happened, and we saw some pretty cool shiat. Just accept it and try to not let it happen again.

IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

A whole lot of THIS.

At the writer, and the two guys above me:

IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

Didnt he do it to himself by signing a document that led to the lifetime ban and him not being allowed in the Hall?

I need to do some more research.

FTA: "He(Weiner) dismissed any correlation between high player salaries and high ticket prices at the ballpark."

Juuuuust a bit outside. Of reality.

babysealclubber: we saw some pretty cool shiat. Just accept it and try to not let it happen again.

This is pretty much why I always lol at baseball fans.

"We had something enjoyable happen in our sport! Let's prevent it from ever happening again!"

IAmRight: This is pretty much why I always lol at baseball fans.

"We had something enjoyable happen in our sport! Let's prevent it from ever happening again!"

The problem I have with performance enhancers in baseball isn't that pros do it - they understand the risks, they get paid a lot of money to take them, whatever. The issue was that it was trickling down into amateur levels. Minor leaguers? Ok, not a huge deal I guess. College? Well, it's a little sticky there. High school? Yeah, no good. So even though I think it shouldn't be a big deal, we can't really allow that because it sends the wrong message to all those 99% of people who won't ever make it, no matter how many drugs they do.

I'd rather let in the greats of the steroid era than miss over a decade of baseball's stars from the HoF. It's history. They were the best of the best. Yes, they were cheating, but so was much of the competition and MLB looked the other way.

elvisaintdead: Juuuuust a bit outside. Of reality.

Dismissing causation might've made sense. Correlation is just silly.

Having actually competed in a sport known for steroids, I see no reason to praise anyone who has used them.

/may your guilt make you cry like McGuire and your balls shrive (which you weren't putting to use anyways)

Greenies were the PEDs of yesteryear, is there much talk of dismissing HOF players for that? Or not getting in via the veteran's committee? How about the cokeheads?

babysealclubber: They shouldn't be kept out. Like it or not, it was an era, it happened, and we saw some pretty cool shiat. Just accept it and try to not let it happen again.

Is. it *IS* an era.

/ryan braun wasnt in the league in the "steroid era". its never going away, and there has never been a period of time where players didnt cheat.

Pete Rose.Hall of Fame.

I think it's more realistic to pretend of note nothing happened between 1994 and 2005.

dohrk: Greenies were the PEDs of yesteryear, is there much talk of dismissing HOF players for that? Or not getting in via the veteran's committee? How about the cokeheads?

I don't think Raines and K. Hernandez had good enough stats.

IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

I'm a pragmatist who knows that shiat goes on even now and it will never really be stopped. Hell, I'm pretty got damn sure our NL MVP is dirty. I actually don't like that they cheated and I wish the world were different in many ways... but ultimately it's not very important. The hall is a farce without Pete Rose. Don't get me wrong, Pete Rose is a loathsome, base, boorish slug if there ever was one. He also has 4256 base hits and your hall of fame is meaningless without him.

JohnBigBootay: IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

I'm a pragmatist who knows that shiat goes on even now and it will never really be stopped. Hell, I'm pretty got damn sure our NL MVP is dirty. I actually don't like that they cheated and I wish the world were different in many ways... but ultimately it's not very important. The hall is a farce without Pete Rose. Don't get me wrong, Pete Rose is a loathsome, base, boorish slug if there ever was one. He also has 4256 base hits and your hall of fame is meaningless without him.

Pete is ineligible for the Hall. It has little to do with the writers and fans as some people suggested. He lied about it for years and years and was given the opportunity to tell the truth. I dont think he has a chance of getting in because he finally admitted it in his book and not to the commissioner who has the power to reinstate him.

Should he be in? Yes. Is it his own fault that he is not in? I think the answer is also yes.

There is room for debate on this and I see where others are coming from but if it meant that much to Pete he would have admitted it a long time ago.

Just my opinion.

babysealclubber: They shouldn't be kept out. Like it or not, it was an era, it happened, and we saw some pretty cool shiat. Just accept it and try to not let it happen again.

Yup. I've found the outrage over the steroids, which is justified to a degree, has generally gone far beyond said degree. The idea of acting like McGwire, Sosa, etc. never happened is ridiculous to me.

Gunny Highway: Didnt he do it to himself by signing a document that led to the lifetime ban and him not being allowed in the Hall?

I need to do some more research.

It's true that he signed a document agreeing to a lifetime ban. However, the signature did not preclude the HOF at the time. The Hall changed the rules after Rose's ban.

I've always wanted to see magic johnson get a papercut in the announcers booth and watch either guy next to him just cringe and try to run away

He is earning his paycheck. I doubt he really believes this.

SoCalSurfer: I've always wanted to see magic johnson get a papercut in the announcers booth and watch either guy next to him just cringe and try to run away

This is completly unrelated to the topic at hand, but goddammit, this is the single greatest thing I have ever read on the internet.

Let 'em in, but serious *

This entire thread was designed to troll me, wasn't it?

Steroids? Check.

Hall of fame? Check.

Guy apparently claiming Tim Raines didn't have good enough stats for the HOF? Check.

Not gonna work, you guys. You can't be THAT obvious. I'm staying far, far away.

Why would the union give a damn about their members health, when they'll just be making more money off those players?

Goes with agents as well.

They should be included, along with some asterisk explaining what went on. MLB let this crap go on for years without thinking about anything but the $$$.

That said, there should be a new rule in place announcing that any player from this day forward that is caught using performance enhancing drugs will be banned from the Hall of Fame. For this to work though, they need to fix their testing procedures. We don't know if Braun cheated or not thanks to those idiots.

/and get rid of Selig

SoCalSurfer: I've always wanted to see magic johnson get a papercut in the announcers booth and watch either guy next to him just cringe and try to run away

Particularly being in Socal, you've likely eaten food at a restaurant prepared by an HIV+ chef who's nicked himself... The virus simply ain't spread in ways such as this. It dies instantly outside of the body, not to mention, Magic's viral load is undoubtedly undetectable due to him being on medication.... Recent studies show people on effective medication can't even pass the virus thru unprotected sex.

T.rex: SoCalSurfer: I've always wanted to see magic johnson get a papercut in the announcers booth and watch either guy next to him just cringe and try to run away

Particularly being in Socal, you've likely eaten food at a restaurant prepared by an HIV+ chef who's nicked himself... The virus simply ain't spread in ways such as this. It dies instantly outside of the body, not to mention, Magic's viral load is undoubtedly undetectable due to him being on medication.... Recent studies show people on effective medication can't even pass the virus thru unprotected sex.

Who brings facts into a steroid/hof thread?

/didnt know that tho
//damn now ive gone and learned something

It was obvious to anyone who looked at pictures of Bonds, McGuire and Sosa at the start of their careers and compared them to how they looked during the whole "home run derby" thing that they were on something ('roids, HGH, whatever). Selig KNEW this and let it slide anyway because the "derby" was generating a lot of excitement, which I'm sure Selig wanted to use to try and save the league's flagging TV ratings at the time.

As Cheesus pointed out, there's STILL ambiguity in their test results, meaning they still haven't learned the lesson.

I'm a realist. I'm sure there's cheating in all forms of professional sports, but when the governing body blatantly ignores the issue (in effect, encouraging it), it taints (IMO) the game itself. I voted with my dollars, the MLB gets $0/year from me and, aside from going to a few games to see a childhood friend play a few years back, has gotten $0 from me for over a decade.

Solely my opinion, Farkers are free to disagree and provide whatever reasons they feel justify turning a blind eye to it, but honestly, that whole scandal turned me off to baseball for life.

/CSB

So I get caught with a pipe and a little amount of weed. I go to prison.

These guys illegally obtain and use steroids and other drugs. They get paid millions, get their names in record books and get to go to the Hall of Fame.

They should have gone to prison along with the owners. Lying sacks of shiat.

It's a deserted island, for the last damned time.

IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: It was obvious to anyone who looked at pictures of Bonds, McGuire and Sosa at the start of their careers and compared them to how they looked during the whole "home run derby" thing that they were on something ('roids, HGH, whatever). Selig KNEW this and let it slide anyway because the "derby" was generating a lot of excitement, which I'm sure Selig wanted to use to try and save the league's flagging TV ratings at the time.

As Cheesus pointed out, there's STILL ambiguity in their test results, meaning they still haven't learned the lesson.

I'm a realist. I'm sure there's cheating in all forms of professional sports, but when the governing body blatantly ignores the issue (in effect, encouraging it), it taints (IMO) the game itself. I voted with my dollars, the MLB gets $0/year from me and, aside from going to a few games to see a childhood friend play a few years back, has gotten $0 from me for over a decade.

Solely my opinion, Farkers are free to disagree and provide whatever reasons they feel justify turning a blind eye to it, but honestly, that whole scandal turned me off to baseball for life.

/CSB

I have to agree with you about Selig. For me the hypocrisy really comes through here. Bonds & Co. were obviously on steroids, everyone knew it. Selig definitely knew it, but he let it slide. Then the whole scandal comes out, blows up, and becomes really toxic for MLB. Today, there's Ryan Braun who, other than a failed test under rather dubious circumstances, shows no obvious signs of steroid use, and was even acquitted by the arbitrators, but Selig wants to nail him to the wall. It just seems a trifle inconsistent.

IMO, they need better testing methods, a more transparent process, and a consistent response to those accused of breaking the rules. And, whether you believe Braun did it or not, he was found innocent and MLB needs to respect the process. It says something about the whole system when MLB publicly protests their own panel's ruling.

aids

It was pretty obvious to everyone at the time that the players were on steroids. You can either ban everyone from that era (think Greg Maddux should be lumped in?) or acknowledge that it happened and judge the players based on some of the newer statistical models and importance to the game.

The hitters were using. The pitchers were using. For some of them it extended their career without a significant skill boost. For others (Bonds), it turned a great hitter into an other worldly one. Some were now transformed without merit (Sosa).

Ultimately, the Baseball Writers of America will be overly sensitive about the reality of the era because it gives them so many new articles to write - hemming and hawing - about each new potential inductee. They'll lap it all up with Clemens and Bonds first.

Without testing in that era and even with the Mitchell Report, it's just a judgment call of "who do you think was guilty?". I think it's extremely pretentious for "journalists" to be making that call.

Given a magic wand like decision on it, I'd wait another 5 years and have a special ballot inductee for these suspected players and they'd all get in at once.

DeWayne Mann: This entire thread was designed to troll me, wasn't it?

Steroids? Check.

Hall of fame? Check.

Guy apparently claiming Tim Raines didn't have good enough stats for the HOF? Check.

Not gonna work, you guys. You can't be THAT obvious. I'm staying far, far away.

What are you talking about with Tim Raines? He was never any good. He only led the league in batting average once!

/ducks

TheMatchHare: DeWayne Mann: This entire thread was designed to troll me, wasn't it?

Steroids? Check.

Hall of fame? Check.

Guy apparently claiming Tim Raines didn't have good enough stats for the HOF? Check.

Not gonna work, you guys. You can't be THAT obvious. I'm staying far, far away.

What are you talking about with Tim Raines? He was never any good. He only led the league in batting average once!

/ducks

No.

NO.

I really gotta turn off email notifications.

DeWayne Mann: TheMatchHare: DeWayne Mann: This entire thread was designed to troll me, wasn't it?

Steroids? Check.

Hall of fame? Check.

Guy apparently claiming Tim Raines didn't have good enough stats for the HOF? Check.

Not gonna work, you guys. You can't be THAT obvious. I'm staying far, far away.

What are you talking about with Tim Raines? He was never any good. He only led the league in batting average once!

/ducks

No.

NO.

I really gotta turn off email notifications.

I know what you mean, but I'm a sucker for any thread where the Hall of Fame is a topic...

The cocksuckers who used steroids in MLB should do the sensible thing.... put the barrel in the mouth, pull the trigger. Yea, really.

IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

They cheated, they stay out. Sorry that you disagree.

JosephFinn: IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

They cheated, they stay out. Sorry that you disagree.

So kick out Gaylord Perry for all those spitballs? Cool.

dohrk: Greenies were the PEDs of yesteryear, is there much talk of dismissing HOF players for that? Or not getting in via the veteran's committee? How about the cokeheads?

They'd have to build an entire wing just for Steve Howe.

IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

You can add in that with very, very few exceptions (I'm talking the Contra Costa Times and Sporting News) they all stuck their heads in the sand and tried to pretend the blatantly obvious cheating going on wasn't happening.

The MLB batting average has decline every year since like 2004. Who knows which ones actually belong (Yes, Bonds is obvious)

buckeyebrain: The Hall changed the rules after Rose's ban.

They did? Were any of the 1919 White Sox in the Hall before that? Surely Jackson belonged. They must have had some "unwritten rule" before one was official?

Dafatone: JosephFinn: IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

They cheated, they stay out. Sorry that you disagree.

So kick out Gaylord Perry for all those spitballs? Cool.

You know what...I'm all for letting anyone in that admits they cheated. Gaylord Perry doesn't deny it.

Granolabar: I have to agree with you about Selig. For me the hypocrisy really comes through here. Bonds & Co. were obviously on steroids, everyone knew it. Selig definitely knew it, but he let it slide. Then the whole scandal comes out, blows up, and becomes really toxic for MLB. Today, there's Ryan Braun who, other than a failed test under rather dubious circumstances, shows no obvious signs of steroid use, and was even acquitted by the arbitrators, but Selig wants to nail him to the wall. It just seems a trifle inconsistent.

No, Ryan Braun got off on a technicality. There was absolutely no evidence his sample was tampered with. It tested for what he pissed into it.

So if I have a surgery to reroute the ligaments in my elbow to throw faster, it's OK.

srhp29: Granolabar: I have to agree with you about Selig. For me the hypocrisy really comes through here. Bonds & Co. were obviously on steroids, everyone knew it. Selig definitely knew it, but he let it slide. Then the whole scandal comes out, blows up, and becomes really toxic for MLB. Today, there's Ryan Braun who, other than a failed test under rather dubious circumstances, shows no obvious signs of steroid use, and was even acquitted by the arbitrators, but Selig wants to nail him to the wall. It just seems a trifle inconsistent.

No, Ryan Braun got off on a technicality. There was absolutely no evidence his sample was tampered with. It tested for what he pissed into it.

Could be. My point was he isn't an obvious user like Big Head Barry or Muscled-up Mark. In fact, I never heard a whisper of suspicion about Braun before the positive test last winter.
Either way though, there's no point even having an arbitration process if MLB isn't going to respect their decisions. He was found innocent by the panel, they should treat him like he's innocent.
(And no, I don't think he did it, but then I'm a Brewer's fan so I'm probably biased.)

JosephFinn: IAmRight: There's no reason they should be kept out, aside from the fact that many baseball fans and writers are very, very stupid.

They cheated, they stay out. Sorry that you disagree.

How did they cheat? So a pitcher who threw a spitball should not be in the Hall? What is the difference between HGH and greenies? or coke?