That blog sucks.

Eh, the blog is poorly written, but the premise is valid. I was laid off by a major company in March and have become a "professional applicant" since then. Going through recruiting agencies helps a lot. I get a lot of feedback from the recruiters saying that the clients "love your positive attitude and outgoing personality." If you're job hunting, keep in mind that attitude is almost as important as aptitude. Almost.

/Too bad I'm not trying to be a radio DJ or PR manager.
//Old job called me and wants me back. I start on Monday
///Should have asked for more money. Meh.

I actually asked that question (and not in the negative sense) when I got offered my current job. My filter must have been beaten into submission by the interview process, because I blurted it right out - to my soon-to-be new boss.

cmunic8r99: I actually asked that question (and not in the negative sense) when I got offered my current job. My filter must have been beaten into submission by the interview process, because I blurted it right out - to my soon-to-be new boss.

The benefit of vendor contracting is that I can ask that question, up front, without biasing the discussion. I don't have time for a company that would like me to design a complete content engineering group, deliver content in online and print, and ensure localization in eight languages, only to hear that I'll be "paid" something like twelve bucks an hour for the privilege. My agency doesn't have time for that, I don't have time for that, and so my agency screens out those idiots long before my agency asks me if I want the gig.

By the time my agency asks me to interview for the gig, they know it's a worthwhile job (i.e., that the client will pay the agency's rates, and therefore the agency will pay my rates.)

I'm reminded of a prior Fark thread, in which some chucklehead sent out a form rejection letter with "advice" on how to actually get a job writing content, and upon further investigation the "jobs" this chucklehead advertised were for staff writers & editors getting paid just above minimum wage.

On the one hand, it's hard to look a gift horse in the mouth when you're unemployed - on the other hand, taking such a job and having to leave a month or two later because it pays peanuts doesn't look good, either. Just be tactful when asking about compensation.

FormlessOne: By the time my agency asks me to interview for the gig, they know it's a worthwhile job (i.e., that the client will pay the agency's rates, and therefore the agency will pay my rates.)

Exactly why contracting is the way to go in the IT business. I tell my placement agency what I'm looking for and they only call me with jobs that pay that. Sometimes I'll get some yahoo that says I would be a "wonderful fit" for their company's IT department and offers a "competitive" salary - too bad that salary is competing with the fast food industry.

MeatPop! Yes, MeatPop..... enjoy and practice auto-fellatio.

College grad: I need 20/hr to move up here and live
Them: when I started out I only made 3/hr
CG: when did you start out
Them: 1962
CG: Ok I'll take the $3 from then with inflation which is more than the 20 I asked for
Them: GOD DAMN LIBS

Things would work so much better for everyone, except maybe the HR department (no great loss), if employers realized interview performance has little to nothing to do with most jobs and stopped basing any of their hiring decisions on it.
You're hiring me to sit in a dark corner and code app menus, interaction limited to a small team who all know what they're doing.
If I seemed nervous during the interview, or didn't ask enough questions about whatever bullshiat you think is more important than my job duties, fine, go ahead and think that, but don't also pretend that has anything to do with coding app menus. I'm not applying to be a salesman, so selling myself isn't part of the equation. My work experience and education should do the selling for me, not how much I may or may not smile, fidget or break eye contact.
Anyone who thinks asking for a salary is improper needs to go die. You're lying if you think pay isn't, at least, one of the top three concerns. If employers are so quick to decide you're wasting their time, there's nothing improper about knowing when they're wasting yours.

CSB time,
Had an interview a few weeks ago out of state. I'd had two phone interviews with the company, one with the HR Director, one with the department head for whom I would work. They were an ad agency that had no 3D design department, and were looking to start one, and at my previous employer I'd done the EXACT kind of work they were looking for, making 3D models of phones, among other things. I had a good feeling about it, and offered to drive down for a face to face. 4 hours down, 4 hours back in one day.
Met with the department head, he and four other higher-ups interviewed me at once. A little bit of the interview was me showing off my work, the rest was me trying to explain 3D Design to five people who thought Toy Story was an interesting looking movie. I tried my best, but feel I was lacking. I didn't go into the interview thinking I'd be giving a lecture on 3D techniques to laymen. Also came to find that they expected to get the whole shebang off the ground with a single computer and Maya software. I told them that to get production quality work in full 1080p, we were going to need much more than that, a render farm of some kind, even if just networked computers together after hours. Went on to talk about lighting depth, photorealistic materials, and the fact I'd need more details on exactly what the projects were before I could give them a reasonable estimate, but I think that was lost on them.
Finally came down the end, and I had to ask, "What's the pay?"
Dead stop.
"We aren't here to talk about that."

If I was hired, HR would let me know what the pay was, but by then I thought I'd already blown it. Confirmation came a few days later when I got a call that they weren't going through with the 3D design department, and that they were going to hire internally to cover the other duties.

/end rant
//sick of being unemployed
///sicker still of the interview process

Sergeant Grumbles: Finally came down the end, and I had to ask, "What's the pay?"
Dead stop.
"We aren't here to talk about that."

That's when you should have re-enacted the scene from Iron Man 2 where Tony Stark stands up, shakes Director Fury's hand and says, "You can't afford me."

aspAddict: FormlessOne: By the time my agency asks me to interview for the gig, they know it's a worthwhile job (i.e., that the client will pay the agency's rates, and therefore the agency will pay my rates.)

Exactly why contracting is the way to go in the IT business. I tell my placement agency what I'm looking for and they only call me with jobs that pay that. Sometimes I'll get some yahoo that says I would be a "wonderful fit" for their company's IT department and offers a "competitive" salary - too bad that salary is competing with the fast food industry.

Just be certain your agency is reputable - I've worked, briefly, with agencies that haven't a clue about the industry, and so send you out to do their screening for them. Good agencies, especially those that serve as primary shops for specific companies (think "Volt and Microsoft") usually have account reps with some background in the field.

aspAddict: Sergeant Grumbles: Finally came down the end, and I had to ask, "What's the pay?"
Dead stop.
"We aren't here to talk about that."

That's when you should have re-enacted the scene from Iron Man 2 where Tony Stark stands up, shakes Director Fury's hand and says, "You can't afford me."

I've ended more than one interview loop early because I couldn't get a straight answer on compensation, even as I'm getting a "hard sell" pitch on accepting the position right then and there. If an employer isn't willing to discuss compensation, don't take the job.

FormlessOne: aspAddict: Sergeant Grumbles: Finally came down the end, and I had to ask, "What's the pay?"
Dead stop.
"We aren't here to talk about that."

That's when you should have re-enacted the scene from Iron Man 2 where Tony Stark stands up, shakes Director Fury's hand and says, "You can't afford me."

I've ended more than one interview loop early because I couldn't get a straight answer on compensation, even as I'm getting a "hard sell" pitch on accepting the position right then and there. If an employer isn't willing to discuss compensation, don't take the job.

I've already stood up in interviews put hands on the desk extended my hand and said "I'm sorry, but this is clearly a step backwards in my career, I'm looking to move forward in my career this doesn't seem to further that goal. Thank you for your time, but for both of our sakes, I don't think we should waste any more time."

i've had a couple recruiters come around fishing for me to take like a 40% paycut, and I've told them that it was clearly below my level, and sometimes I've told them that it was clearly below prevailing wage for what they want.

And if an employer won't address severance package pre-hire, additional vacation time, other perks, saying that these items arent negotiable and standard, I tell them that they're right it isn't negotiable and end the interview. Sometimes I'll first say "everything is negotiable" to see if they'll actually play ball, but that generaly doesnt help them.

Employers are there to pay you the bare minimum. you will never have the same leverage to negotiate as when you are on your way in, and if they don't want to play ball, they can find another candidate. The job market isnt THAT BAD anymore, and frankly settling for an "ok" fit with verbal promises of largess will make you a very disappointed employee.

I don't Do "Smiley" for my employers and never have. Knowing that people want female candidates to look and act like they'll drop to their knees and do oral on them, I have done everything I can to stay employed at my current job. 15 years so far (knock wood).

When i started as a video editor at my current station ten years ago, I made $10.12 an hr and got the job by working my way up through the PA ranks.

Today they pay editors 8.50 an hour, require atleast a Bachelors, and the medical bennies cost twice as much.

Needless to say turnover is so high most of my overtime comes from constantly having to cover editing shifts

Contents Under Pressure: I don't Do "Smiley" for my employers and never have. Knowing that people want female candidates to look and act like they'll drop to their knees and do oral on them, I have done everything I can to stay employed at my current job. 15 years so far (knock wood).

Meh. I've had the reciprocal experience from female hiring managers. I'm looking to trade skill and labor for money and experience, lady, not play some kinky power game.

Sometimes male hiring managers too. Let's face it - the job of management requires that you either be a sociopath or clueless.

You really consider discretely looking for another job though, I can guarantee you that you're leaving a lot of money on the table by accepting the shiatty sub-inflation raise they give every year.

Employers don't seem to realize that after a certain phase of life, say after you leave college or certainly by the time you're 30 - you don't want to have to have roommates to pay rent on a decent place to live. When I was recently divorced (and dumped by my employer because the ex worked there too), all I wanted was a job that would pay me just enough to afford a small, modest, but decent place of my own. I didn't want to live with 4 people in a two bedroom apartment. I didn't want to have to move in with mommy and daddy. A livable wage based on the local economy is never too much to ask for a position that isn't ...well...kid work.

"But we can't find anyone to fill our positions!"

You're not offering enough money. If you're throwing dump trucks of money at it and still can't find a qualified applicant, your experience / education requirements are too specialized. In the past, employers would train someone to fit a job. It seemed to work. But, mostly, you're not offering enough money.

The fact that employers still have the gall to expect you to show up in your best suit with your broadest smile and warmest handshake for an interview a job that you know is a rip off AND for which you're competing with at least a dozen or more other people...it's insulting is what it is.

aspAddict: FormlessOne: By the time my agency asks me to interview for the gig, they know it's a worthwhile job (i.e., that the client will pay the agency's rates, and therefore the agency will pay my rates.)

Exactly why contracting is the way to go in the IT business. I tell my placement agency what I'm looking for and they only call me with jobs that pay that. Sometimes I'll get some yahoo that says I would be a "wonderful fit" for their company's IT department and offers a "competitive" salary - too bad that salary is competing with the fast food industry.

I'm quite satisfied with my current regular full time gig, but as my info is still out there on Monster and LinkedIn, I'll occasionally get cold calls from recruiters who've seen an item in my work experience from 6 years ago, and have "the perfect position" for me. This is invariably entry level, and sometimes it is fun to say that I won't take a 70% paycut for the "perfect position." Sometimes, "it's competitive" only, and I tell them, "OK, but I won't get out of bed for less than 80K". That usually leads to "OK, thank you for your time"

Companies; if you're only paying peanuts, all you're going to get is monkeys.

Sergeant Grumbles:
You're hiring me to sit in a dark corner and code app menus, interaction limited to a small team who all know what they're doing.


No, we shipped all those jobs off to India. Or we tried to. We realize some of you are still lurking in the shadows of our companies, protected by sympathetic managers who hide you like Jews in the attic. But we've figured out that if you can work in a dark corner without interaction, some half-caste living in a cardboard box can do the same thing. So that's most definitely not why we hired you. If we hired you, it's because you've convinced us that you can help our company grow.

I CAN BE YOUR ENGINEER.

falcon176: College grad: I need 20/hr to move up here and live
Them: when I started out I only made 3/hr
CG: when did you start out
Them: 1962
CG: Ok I'll take the $3 from then with inflation which is more than the 20 I asked for
Them: GOD DAMN LIBS

Wow, I thought you were shiatting me. Then I ran it through an inflation calculator.
BLS says that $3 in 1962 is $22.79 today.

Ishidan: falcon176: College grad: I need 20/hr to move up here and live
Them: when I started out I only made 3/hr
CG: when did you start out
Them: 1962
CG: Ok I'll take the $3 from then with inflation which is more than the 20 I asked for
Them: GOD DAMN LIBS

Wow, I thought you were shiatting me. Then I ran it through an inflation calculator.
BLS says that $3 in 1962 is $22.79 today.

Wow. So I'm busting my ass for the equivalent of essential 1-2 1962 dollars? fark y'all, I'm moving to Norway.

aspAddict: Sergeant Grumbles: Finally came down the end, and I had to ask, "What's the pay?"
Dead stop.
"We aren't here to talk about that."

That's when you should have re-enacted the scene from Iron Man 2 where Tony Stark stands up, shakes Director Fury's hand and says, "You can't afford me."

THIS.

I hate to say this, but based on your description, they had no inclination to hire you at any point. They wanted to know what it would take to do the job, and if they could do it on the cheap. I've seen a lot of places pull that stunt with applicants for jobs that they're not actually planning on filling. The HR folk referred to it as "uncompensated consultancy".

/those who engage in such behavior are pretty much scumbags

falcon176: College grad: I need 20/hr to move up here and live
Them: when I started out I only made 3/hr
CG: when did you start out
Them: 1962
CG: Ok I'll take the $3 from then with inflation which is more than the 20 I asked for
Them: GOD DAMN LIBSGeneration entitlement!!!

FTFY

/based on personal experience
//I'm in my 30s and funded my own formal education... still have to listen to how tuition in the 1980s is the same price as in 2012

meathome: THIS.

I hate to say this, but based on your description, they had no inclination to hire you at any point. They wanted to know what it would take to do the job, and if they could do it on the cheap. I've seen a lot of places pull that stunt with applicants for jobs that they're not actually planning on filling. The HR folk referred to it as "uncompensated consultancy".

/those who engage in such behavior are pretty much scumbags

This is why I always end up sounding like a radical communist.

Sergeant Grumbles:
This is why I always end up sounding like a radical communist.

I find that it's common in business to deride people who use common sense to show the flaws in the master plan, or to point out something that doesn't put the company in the best light.

Some folks will always be Debbie Downers, but most of them are simply approaching the issue from a different viewpoint. I've found that the best leaders are those who can look at things from more than a single angle. They're the ones best able to navigate through the minefield and succeed.

Unforuntely, most people with that mindset have a low tolerance for the politics, which often limits their ability to affect real change.

A few weeks ago, I got contacted on LinkedIn seemingly randomly by an HR person from a company that was (still is as a matter of fact) looking for someone with "exactly the skills on your resume." I responded, thinking it was another keyword search that turned up "welder" from 15 years ago, and that would be that. Not this time. This time it was legit. The HR person was an actual HR person from an actual company and sounded very excited, asking what my salary requirements were, and when I was available for an interview. I responded with an amount about $15K over what I make now, thinking that would be the end of it. I get a call "I'm sending you our application paperwork, benefits brochure and employee handbook so you can go over them and get that out of the way." So I went to the interview. The HR person has a schedule mapped out of the people I am to interview with. So, 20 minutes later, the first guy comes in, we talk for about a half hour and he leaves to go get the next person. I waited for another half hour, and was just thinking that I should go wander around until security reminds them that I am there, when the first guy comes back and says, "You're still waiting?! Those rat...mutter mutter forgot..." Another 10 minutes and the second guy comes in. We talk for another 15 minutes and he goes away, and I'm thinking that these people really need to get it together. The HR lady comes back and tells me that I don't know the right software and they are looking for someone who can "hit the ground running" and all that crap. She asks me if I want to tour the place and so we did. After that she was still going on about how they really needed someone who knows ProE not Inventor, but they will be hiring airframe mechanics and low-level grunts pretty soon, and she'll call me. "Don't bother" I said. "I'm not interested in dropping that far back down my career ladder again. The look on her face was priceless. SHE was the one who called me and wanted me to interview for a position that she either had no clear idea of, or there is a finders fee for hiring at the place, and she took a chance. But she still looked like a cheerleader who asked a dork out and got told "No." Look lady, you cost me some time and a half OT since I took a half day off work, so you just wasted BOTH of our time. I still think I failed in some part of the interview and I just don't know. Not knowing the right software is a bogus excuse, and she couldn't look me in the eye when she told me, so I know there was a lie somewhere. If they ever call back again, the price went up another $10K.

TL;DR: Job interviews suck.

Chevello: TL;DR: Job interviews suck.

Agreed.
Not knowing the right software is always a bogus excuse, especially when you know a similar program with a similar function. But you can get slapped down for the difference between Microsoft Office and Open Office Writer. Yet it's out fault they can't find a "qualified" candidate.