tortilla burger: It seems to me curbing the wheels is an outdated law. I can't see the purpose it serves. In theory it's supposed to keep your car from rolling into the street, but honestly when was the last time that's happened? Maybe back in the day it made sense given the technology in cars, but I've never encountered any instance in my lifetime.

Esc7: a 3% grade is an angle of 1.35 degrees. Just so you know.

Also I've parked plenty of times in SF and know about how the "curb your wheels" Nazis are making plenty of incursions into what have historically been considered "flat" areas.

Imagine you live in an area for 5 years and then one week everyone on your street gets ticketed for not curbing their wheels. It has happened more than once in the past few years and it drives people CRAZY.

especially when you try and remember the last time a handbrake has failed.

The last time it happened? Probably this morning, but it usually doesn't make the news. The last time I know of?

Last week.

The last time I can remember anyone getting killed was about 14-15 years ago, around the corner and up the hill from me. So yeah, it matters.

These folks can always pull the city's official map of their block to see what the City Engineer says the grade is. If it's 2.9%, their tickets shouldn't have been issued; if it's 3.05%, tough boobies and pay your fine.

A quick and dirty test is to put a pencil on the pavement. If it rolls, the grade is past 3% and your wheels best be curbed. I do this anywhere that isn't pan-flat.

/live on a 13 percent grade
//I'm the person who calls 311 if I see someone who hasn't curbed.

mjoven1975: If you're worried about protecting your freedom you don't live in San Francisco in the first place.

QFT -- SF is not exactly a bastion of libertarianism.

I'm loving this article because I live in SF and just had a "runaway" car roll backwards into mine, on an almost flat street no less. Plus I got to watch the whole thing slowly unfold from my front door. They're lucky my car was there because the street got a whole lot steeper after that.

You should curb your wheels no matter what degree slope you're on. It sucks that these people got ticketed, but they shouldn't be surprised about this level of dickitude from the meter readers here. I once watched a guy wait out a meter just so he could write a citation for it being expired, that's pretty special right there

People should just do this if they're inclined to do so.

Esc7: For anyone who doesn't live in SF and doesn't have experience curbing your wheels:

If you regularly park in parts of the city that seem like a 100% grade (45 degrees) you WILL curb your wheels. If you don't, you deserve a ticket. But the direction you curb them changes whether you're facing downhill or uphill.

On bumpy streets that hover around the 1.35 degree grade, the natural instinct to curb your wheels is suppressed because you don't have an inclination to turn your wheels one way or the other. It seems like neutral ground.

Err, how does it even matter which way the slope is? Don't you just turn the wheels so they're pointing towards the curb, regardless?

jtown: On the other hand, why would you not curb your wheels every time you parallel park?

If there isn't a clear grade, how do you decide which direction to curb them? ...because pointing your wheels in the wrong direction is (arguably) worse than leaving your wheels straight.

calgar99: meat0918: I was taught always curb your wheels, that way in the unlikely event you are rear ended while your car is parked, it will move towards the curb, and not the center of the road.

If you're rear ended, your car is going forward and your tires will simply skid. I can't imagine curinb your wheels helping at all in this situation.

San Francisco ranks at the top of places your likely to get a good rear-ending.

Abner Doon: Err, how does it even matter which way the slope is? Don't you just turn the wheels so they're pointing towards the curb, regardless?

No -- think about the geometry (and gravity) a little harder.

When I was a kid, my dad's car got winged one night when the Ford up the hill "let go" and came rolling down the hill. Luckily, it was stopped by a stop sign (ha!) before it got across the street and could do real damage. I always curb my wheels now. I can't imagine anyone who's lived in SF for more than five minutes doesn't curb instinctively.

What an uncurbed car in SF may look like

ZMugg: Whenever I see "Curb your (blank), I see:

[www.knickknackrecords.com image 500x500]


old

I'd high-five you but bones get brittle at my age.

jshine: Abner Doon: Err, how does it even matter which way the slope is? Don't you just turn the wheels so they're pointing towards the curb, regardless?

No -- think about the geometry (and gravity) a little harder.

Yup, still not getting it. Actually it seems like no matter which way you turn the wheels, you're fine, as long as your car is close enough to the curb. The only difference will be which of your wheels runs into the curb first, if it starts rolling.

Esc7: Another fun SFMTA story:

There is a long stretch of street where my girlfriend and many other of her building coworkers would park for work early every morning. You couldn't park overnight, there were signs posted forbidding it.

One evening everyone returns to their cars to see 80 dollar tickets on each car. Bewildered they call up SFMTA and demand to know what the hell they are for. They are told to look at the signs and lo and behold the signs have been changed to new "NO PARKING ANYTIME" the same damn size and the same damn shape as the old signs.

Apparently they are going to put an enhanced bike lane there, but they haven't painted the curb, nor painted the lines for the bike lane, but they DID swap in new signs IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT, so 80 bucks each please.

When people said that this sudden change wasn't fair, they responded with a very HHG-esque "well we had a community meeting and its been posted in the planning department and I can't help it if you don't take any interest in current affairs"

/even funnier: My girlfriend is an architect who regularly visits the planning department, and even she was blindsided by this change.

CSB, but as you can see from the bits I bolded, your timeline is off. It sounds like either (1) the signs were changed in the middle of the night and nobody noticed the next morning when they parked their cars, which is highly unlikely, or (2) the signs were changed IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, since that's when most non-vampire architects (and DPW's sign crews) are working.

Also, the City posts notices of proposed changes (at least a week before the hearings on the changes) to the utility and light poles on the affected blocks, so if everyone was parking there and nobody noticed the flyers swaddled to the light poles, ummmm, wow... nice attention to the neighborhood environment from people whom one would think are trying to design buildings that fit into neighborhood environments.

Abner Doon: jshine: Abner Doon: Err, how does it even matter which way the slope is? Don't you just turn the wheels so they're pointing towards the curb, regardless?

No -- think about the geometry (and gravity) a little harder.

Yup, still not getting it. Actually it seems like no matter which way you turn the wheels, you're fine, as long as your car is close enough to the curb. The only difference will be which of your wheels runs into the curb first, if it starts rolling.

Ok, I'll skip the physics-based explanation and just go straight to the SF road-signs:



It's "right" because the law says it's right. QED.

Abner Doon: jshine: Abner Doon: Err, how does it even matter which way the slope is? Don't you just turn the wheels so they're pointing towards the curb, regardless?

No -- think about the geometry (and gravity) a little harder.

Yup, still not getting it. Actually it seems like no matter which way you turn the wheels, you're fine, as long as your car is close enough to the curb. The only difference will be which of your wheels runs into the curb first, if it starts rolling.

had a '62 Plymouth Belvedere (push button tranny, slide handle park brake) that would pop the brake on hills whenever it felt like it. pissed off a neighbor with a huge lawn when he thought i parked there on purpose. another time found my car at bottom of the hill blocking traffic on another road. people have no sense of humor.

/old, so old

My surname is Hill so I'm getting a kick...

Assuming the law isn't there, who pays the price for non-compliance? I curb my wheels on anything steeper than my driveway just because I don't want to damage my car. While I'd prefer others do the same thing, I am awfully tired of legislating what should be common sense.

Treygreen13: [top-people.starmedia.com image 300x443]

/approves
//obscure?

No. He came down a mountain, not a hill.

meat0918: cgraves67: I didn't even know there was a law for such things. I just thought it was a common sense trick they taught in drivers' ed.

Yeah, no kidding.

I was taught always curb your wheels, that way in the unlikely event you are rear ended while your car is parked, it will move towards the curb, and not the center of the road.

...that's not really how physics works. Your car is in park. In most modern vehicles that means the transmission is locked. Meaning unless your car slides, it's not going anywhere baring transmission failure.

Hitting a parked car would be roughly analogous to hitting a wooden rectangle of the same weight. Is the rectangle going to carreening around hills?

Why not just put signs every 10 feet throughout the city? Even the libbiest lib who ever libbed can't resist sign pollution and turning everything into a nanny state. They should be bubble wrapped in case an illegal immigrant child accidentally gets racially offended by it's sharp edges. Maybe start a new tax to pay restitution of any illegal immigrant child that gets offend. Then the governor can raid it to pay for red-light cameras on every corner.


[/troll]


CSB, when I lived in california, on one block there was a "no parking from here to corner sign" right at the beginning of the block, then every 10 feet a "no parking any time" sign then at the end of the block on the corner a "end no parking" sign.

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: ZMugg: Whenever I see "Curb your (blank), I see:

[www.knickknackrecords.com image 500x500]


old

I'd high-five you but bones get brittle at my age.


Can relate.
*gentle fist bump*

Abner Doon: A 3% grade probably isn't too extreme as far as hills go, but it sounds dangerous as hell if your car starts rolling on its own.

3% grade is a 3' drop off for every 100' of distance.

You can set down a ball on a 10% grade and it will not roll.

Modern cars have their parking brakes tested on a 30% grade. Seriously, 3% grade is... zilch.

The hypotenuse of a right triangle with a 3% grade and sides measuring 100' and 3' would be 100.05'. it's imperceptible to the human eye over he distances involved.

kroonermanblack: meat0918: cgraves67: I didn't even know there was a law for such things. I just thought it was a common sense trick they taught in drivers' ed.

Yeah, no kidding.

I was taught always curb your wheels, that way in the unlikely event you are rear ended while your car is parked, it will move towards the curb, and not the center of the road.

...that's not really how physics works. Your car is in park. In most modern vehicles that means the transmission is locked. Meaning unless your car slides, it's not going anywhere baring transmission failure.

Hitting a parked car would be roughly analogous to hitting a wooden rectangle of the same weight. Is the rectangle going to carreening around hills?

Did you know that the pin that locks the shift lever can actually deform from being used to hold a vehicle on a hill? Neither did I and neither did my cousin, until the day he couldn't shift out of P without two people pushing the truck (a 2000-ish Ford F-250) back uphill. Ever since then, I've *always* set the brake before putting the transmission into Park.

Mr. Potatoass: surrealbowl: So on flat ground, should they turn the wheels into the curb or away?

Yes

Pretty much this. Whichever way you turn them on a flat, it's wrong. $50 - a ticket large enough to hurt, but small enough that taking time off from work to fight it would mean losing more than you gain.

jshine: jtown: On the other hand, why would you not curb your wheels every time you parallel park?

If there isn't a clear grade, how do you decide which direction to curb them? ...because pointing your wheels in the wrong direction is (arguably) worse than leaving your wheels straight.

Wow, your training was inadequate and your logic is poor.

If you have no clear grade, you turn the wheels towards the curb. That will stop your car from rolling in either direction because, if the vehicle is pushed backwards, the rear wheels will be forced into the curb as the front end swings out or the front end will swing into the curb if it's pushed forward.

100 Watt Walrus: Pretty much this. Whichever way you turn them on a flat, it's wrong. $50 - a ticket large enough to hurt, but small enough that taking time off from work to fight it would mean losing more than you gain.

The rationale:
Into the curb- you hate pedestrians. What if your brakes fail and someone hits your parked car? You go to jail because you killed a pedestrian. (All pedestrians are victims in California)

Away from the curb- What if your brakes fail and someone hits your parked car? You go to jail because you killed a bicyclist. (All bicyclists are victims in California too, but not as much as pedestrians are)

Rolls and hits a car? Circle of life amigo.

jtown: On the one hand, it sounds like a ridiculous thing to enforce on a non-sloped road. On the other hand, why would you not curb your wheels every time you parallel park? It doesn't take much of a slope at all for a car to roll and it doesn't take any slope at all for a car to move if it's struck by another vehicle. An intelligent person wouldn't leave their vehicle without putting it in park (or 1st gear for manuals) and engaging the emergency/parking brake. Curbing the wheels is another, absolutely free level of protection that intelligent people use every time they parallel park. If you even stop to think about it, your driver training was inadequate.

I bet you could build some chocks for free too, but that doesn't mean you should get fined for not using them. If your car isn't a billionty years old, putting it in Park plus using the parking brake should be plenty sufficient. If you get hit by something that overcomes both of those, well your car probably just rolled over the curb anyway.

jshine: mjoven1975: If you're worried about protecting your freedom you don't live in San Francisco in the first place.

QFT -- SF is not exactly a bastion of libertarianism.

Depends what freedoms you're talking about. If you want to live outside the mainstream, you have the freedom to do that without being ostracized everywhere and denounced by local politicians.

If you only see freedom in terms of how many guns you can have or how much tax you have to pay, then it's not the place for you.

FTFA "Rose said. "We're just making sure people follow the rules of the road. The rules are put in place for specific reasons, and in this case, it's to ensure safety for all users."

So putting a piece of paper under the wiper removes the forces of gravity from the vehicle thereby eliminating the potential hazard. Or your claim of doing it for reasons of safety is complete bullshiat. One of the two.

Paul Rose, spokesman for Muni, said there's been no word from on high that parking enforcement officers are supposed to be raising more money for the cash-strapped agency by issuing such citations. And he said individual officers aren't given a quota for the numbers of tickets issued or paid per citation; rather issuing tickets is up to their own discretion. He added that citations are actually down year-over-year.

Repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it the truth.

In fact, it makes it a lot easier to spot the lie.

Oliver Twisted: FTFA "Rose said. "We're just making sure people follow the rules of the road. The rules are put in place for specific reasons, and in this case, it's to ensure safety for all users."

So putting a piece of paper under the wiper removes the forces of gravity from the vehicle thereby eliminating the potential hazard. Or your claim of doing it for reasons of safety is complete bullshiat. One of the two.

So you want them to tow the vehicle instead? I suppose that would help their budget more.

capngroovy: My surname is Hill so I'm getting a kick...

Assuming the law isn't there, who pays the price for non-compliance? I curb my wheels on anything steeper than my driveway just because I don't want to damage my car. While I'd prefer others do the same thing, I am awfully tired of legislating what should be common sense.

"Should be" is the magic phrase. The older I get, the harder it is to find people with common sense.

Who pays the price for non-compliance? The people downhill from the guy whose car left its parking spot in obedience to the laws of gravity.

Fool_Marquis: Abner Doon: A 3% grade probably isn't too extreme as far as hills go, but it sounds dangerous as hell if your car starts rolling on its own.

3% grade is a 3' drop off for every 100' of distance.

You can set down a ball on a 10% grade and it will not roll.

A deflated ball, maybe. But when there's pavement involved, anything roundish is going to roll.

Modern cars have their parking brakes tested on a 30% grade. Seriously, 3% grade is... zilch.

Factory new, sure; but after a few years of use, what then? There's a 31 percent grade on the next block, and I know I wouldn't trust *any* parking brake on that slope; neither does The City, as parking on that block is on a 90 degree angle.

Tell you what: the standard block in this part of town is 1/8 mile, call it 650 feet to make the math easy. That 3 percent grade amounts to about a 20-foot drop. Now imagine a two-ton SUV coasting down that street from a standstill at the top. What is the kinetic energy of that vehicle when it's at the end of the block?

The answer is: enough to put you in the hospital or even the morgue. Enough to total a car or cause structural damage to a building.

Seriously, curb your freaking wheels, people.

Cheesus: Oliver Twisted: FTFA "Rose said. "We're just making sure people follow the rules of the road. The rules are put in place for specific reasons, and in this case, it's to ensure safety for all users."

So putting a piece of paper under the wiper removes the forces of gravity from the vehicle thereby eliminating the potential hazard. Or your claim of doing it for reasons of safety is complete bullshiat. One of the two.

So you want them to tow the vehicle instead? I suppose that would help their budget more.

They could just deflate the tires. It's not going to roll that way. And you don't have to involve a tow truck!

Oliver Twisted: FTFA "Rose said. "We're just making sure people follow the rules of the road. The rules are put in place for specific reasons, and in this case, it's to ensure safety for all users."

So putting a piece of paper under the wiper removes the forces of gravity from the vehicle thereby eliminating the potential hazard. Or your claim of doing it for reasons of safety is complete bullshiat. One of the two.

I'd be okay with slapping a Denver boot on that car, how about you?

Esc7: Imagine you live in an area for 5 years and then one week everyone on your street gets ticketed for not curbing their wheels. It has happened more than once in the past few years and it drives people CRAZY.

Usually, when something like that happens here, all the neighbors show up en mass with a lawyer and the parking authority doesn't pull that stunt again.

fark the SFMTA.

/$65 for an expired meter, my ass

KrispyKritter: had a '62 Plymouth Belvedere (push button tranny, slide handle park brake) that would pop the brake on hills whenever it felt like it. pissed off a neighbor with a huge lawn when he thought i parked there on purpose. another time found my car at bottom of the hill blocking traffic on another road. people have no sense of humor.

/old, so old

Woah! That's a whole different kind of SF story there Bub!!

macadamnut: [www.autodriveawaysf.com image 375x500]

There can be only one.

There can, and it's not Lombard. Vermont St is steeper and more crooked... and home to the annual Easter Sunday Bigwheel Race.

RussianPooper: jshine: mjoven1975: If you're worried about protecting your freedom you don't live in San Francisco in the first place.

QFT -- SF is not exactly a bastion of libertarianism.

Depends what freedoms you're talking about. If you want to live outside the mainstream, you have the freedom to do that without being ostracized everywhere and denounced by local politicians.

If you only see freedom in terms of how many guns you can have or how much tax you have to pay, then it's not the place for you.



I think the word "freedom" isn't really meaningful if you have to qualify it with something along the lines of "What type of freedom do you mean?". Real "freedom" would include the freedom to have abortions, smoke pot, own as many guns as you please, and have minimal (but not zero, of course) government intrusion into your choices (including taxation). San Francisco is great at respecting a certain sub-set of freedoms, but it's not a particularly expansive set.

/A person need not jump into one of the two traditional political stereotypes.
//My fellow Earthicans, we enjoy so much freedom it's almost sickening. We're free to choose which hand our sex-monitoring chip is implanted in. And if we don't want to pay our taxes, why, we're free to spend a weekend with the Pain Monster.

RussianPooper: jshine: mjoven1975: If you're worried about protecting your freedom you don't live in San Francisco in the first place.

QFT -- SF is not exactly a bastion of libertarianism.

Depends what freedoms you're talking about. If you want to live outside the mainstream, you have the freedom to do that without being ostracized everywhere and denounced by local politicians.

If you only see freedom in terms of how many guns you can have or how much tax you have to pay, then it's not the place for you.

SF is great if you like to see naked dudes roaming the streets without a care in the world and bums pooping in the streets. Those are completely acceptable in SF but plastic bags and Happy Meals are banned. Nice priorities you have there SF.

coralfixation: fark the SFMTA.

/$65 for an expired meter, my ass

Uh, you get no sympathy. Make sure you have enough time in your meter before you leave or risk getting a ticket. You got caught, pay the fine and suck it up.

Cheesus: Oliver Twisted: FTFA "Rose said. "We're just making sure people follow the rules of the road. The rules are put in place for specific reasons, and in this case, it's to ensure safety for all users."

So putting a piece of paper under the wiper removes the forces of gravity from the vehicle thereby eliminating the potential hazard. Or your claim of doing it for reasons of safety is complete bullshiat. One of the two.

So you want them to tow the vehicle instead? I suppose that would help their budget more.

Treygreen13:

So you want them to tow the vehicle instead? I suppose that would help their budget more.

They could just deflate the tires. It's not going to roll that way. And you don't have to involve a tow truck!

LibertyHiller:

I'd be okay with slapping a Denver boot on that car, how about you?

At least these would be honest efforts for safety instead of the lie that is told to us over an over again.

LibertyHiller: kroonermanblack: meat0918: cgraves67: I didn't even know there was a law for such things. I just thought it was a common sense trick they taught in drivers' ed.

Yeah, no kidding.

I was taught always curb your wheels, that way in the unlikely event you are rear ended while your car is parked, it will move towards the curb, and not the center of the road.

...that's not really how physics works. Your car is in park. In most modern vehicles that means the transmission is locked. Meaning unless your car slides, it's not going anywhere baring transmission failure.

Hitting a parked car would be roughly analogous to hitting a wooden rectangle of the same weight. Is the rectangle going to carreening around hills?

Did you know that the pin that locks the shift lever can actually deform from being used to hold a vehicle on a hill? Neither did I and neither did my cousin, until the day he couldn't shift out of P without two people pushing the truck (a 2000-ish Ford F-250) back uphill. Ever since then, I've *always* set the brake before putting the transmission into Park.

I did not!

But I always put my parking break on on 'real' hills anyway, so now I have a good reason to.

techbuzz: macadamnut: [www.autodriveawaysf.com image 375x500]

There can be only one.

There can, and it's not Lombard. Vermont St is steeper and more crooked... and home to the annual Easter Sunday Bigwheel Race.

[images.travelpod.com image 550x412]

Shhh! Don't tell the tourists!

mjoven1975: coralfixation: fark the SFMTA.

/$65 for an expired meter, my ass

Uh, you get no sympathy. Make sure you have enough time in your meter before you leave or risk getting a ticket. You got caught, pay the fine and suck it up.

I agree, but $65 is ridiculous. $25-30 is more reasonable.

/first ticket in 20 years of driving
/ended up not tipping anyone at all that weekend to "recover" that tax
/yeah, I'm an asshole, don't care

Treygreen13: lucksi: Seeing that that is a rule that we don'T have over here; where does it come from? shiatty cars with failig hand brakes? From the time before hand brakes?

Well I can see it maybe being useful in an earthquake, if your car starts shaking and rolling backwards due to it.

Better safe than sorry in regards to turning your wheels towards the curb (which we even have on the driver's test here in Texas) but there's no reason to start measuring grades of road to fine people for it.

Weird, didn't have to do it for my Tx test...

'Course...

It was Lubbock.

They have hills, but she has to lay down on her back first.

And usually anything having to do with San Francisco hills makes me think of Bill Cosby.

/Drive around, you idiot, drive around!

Kahlifornia Uber Alice

SweetSilverBlues: Treygreen13: lucksi: Seeing that that is a rule that we don'T have over here; where does it come from? shiatty cars with failig hand brakes? From the time before hand brakes?

Well I can see it maybe being useful in an earthquake, if your car starts shaking and rolling backwards due to it.

Better safe than sorry in regards to turning your wheels towards the curb (which we even have on the driver's test here in Texas) but there's no reason to start measuring grades of road to fine people for it.

Weird, didn't have to do it for my Tx test...

'Course...

It was Lubbock.

They have hills, but she has to lay down on her back first.

And usually anything having to do with San Francisco hills makes me think of Bill Cosby.

/Drive around, you idiot, drive around!

I played golf once on the public course in Lubbock in the late '80s during a drought. It's so flat and featureless there that the only way they could make a Par 5 was to make the hole something like 1000 yards long. The greens were brown. The rough was smooth. The tees were damn near dirt. The place had one "water hazard" - a big hole with some mud in the bottom. A couple holes had doglegs, but there were no trees, so you could just cut across and eagle the hole. My dad and I seemed to be the only ones on the course, so we started playing our own game - just picked any random flag we could see from whatever tee we were on, and started playing for that hole. Had a great time, but man, that place was a terrible golf course.

/Also, apropos of nothing, it's hard to find a Pepsi in Texas

SpaceBison: I'm from Nebraska, what does curb your wheels mean?

I'm from west Virginia, what does flat mean?

Ah, looks like MUNI's trying to come up with exciting new ways for drivers to cover the costs of The City's feel-good giveways (in the midst of an existing budget crisis) like "At-Hope Kids Pay No Fares!"