+1

Nobody forced them to play

/obligatory

Is it not enough that they make millions of dollars a year? Do they need hazard pay on top of that?

I guess Reggie Ray wasn't keeping track of his concussion counter?

I knew I could break a leg or something similar growing up when I played - I didn't think I would have had to worry that I would need someone to feed me Jello by the time I turned 45 while wetting my diaper.

I don't blame the NFL though, but I do think this is something the league won't survive

p the boiler: I knew I could break a leg or something similar growing up when I played - I didn't think I would have had to worry that I would need someone to feed me Jello by the time I turned 45 while wetting my diaper.

I don't blame the NFL though, but I do think this is something the league won't survive

They'll survive but I bet we will see a game that looks more like rugby when it is all over.

few pro football players have ever been accused of being intelligent.

/"i knew if we stayed ahead in points we would win the game"

We've turned into a society of PUSSIES.

Ancient Greeks and Spartans are rolling in their graves. Those were real HARD men.

Sorry, play the game, get the dough, get the ever-loving sh*t kicked out of you for OUR entertainment. No case.

/uh, next?

p the boiler: I knew I could break a leg or something similar growing up when I played - I didn't think I would have had to worry that I would need someone to feed me Jello by the time I turned 45 while wetting my diaper.

I don't blame the NFL though, but I do think this is something the league won't survive

This, kind of. Nobody knew they would be vegetables at 45 by playing football. That is not something any coach or parent ever mentions while growing up.

I find it hard to believe the NFL is at fault either. It's a relatively young league with the way the game is played and can only now study the long term effects on someone who played since they were a kid all the way to the early grave.

If someone has proof the NFL knew what was going to happen and hid the results, I'll shut up. I'm not defending the league, I just haven't heard of any coverup by the league.

But I could be wrong, hope I'm not but I'm willing to change my mind based on new evidence.

pregerstheHobo: p the boiler: I knew I could break a leg or something similar growing up when I played - I didn't think I would have had to worry that I would need someone to feed me Jello by the time I turned 45 while wetting my diaper.

I don't blame the NFL though, but I do think this is something the league won't survive

This, kind of. Nobody knew they would be vegetables at 45 by playing football. That is not something any coach or parent ever mentions while growing up.

I find it hard to believe the NFL is at fault either. It's a relatively young league with the way the game is played and can only now study the long term effects on someone who played since they were a kid all the way to the early grave.

If someone has proof the NFL knew what was going to happen and hid the results, I'll shut up. I'm not defending the league, I just haven't heard of any coverup by the league.

But I could be wrong, hope I'm not but I'm willing to change my mind based on new evidence.

Plus, before the growth in players' weight and velocities, you didn't have the kind of momentum and energy involved in player collisions. And there were lots of old NFL players who grew old enough to need pensions and other benefits later players secured for them.

TheShavingofOccam123: pregerstheHobo: p the boiler: I knew I could break a leg or something similar growing up when I played - I didn't think I would have had to worry that I would need someone to feed me Jello by the time I turned 45 while wetting my diaper.

I don't blame the NFL though, but I do think this is something the league won't survive

This, kind of. Nobody knew they would be vegetables at 45 by playing football. That is not something any coach or parent ever mentions while growing up.

I find it hard to believe the NFL is at fault either. It's a relatively young league with the way the game is played and can only now study the long term effects on someone who played since they were a kid all the way to the early grave.

If someone has proof the NFL knew what was going to happen and hid the results, I'll shut up. I'm not defending the league, I just haven't heard of any coverup by the league.

But I could be wrong, hope I'm not but I'm willing to change my mind based on new evidence.

Plus, before the growth in players' weight and velocities, you didn't have the kind of momentum and energy involved in player collisions. And there were lots of old NFL players who grew old enough to need pensions and other benefits later players secured for them.

I would shave this quote down but mobile sucks...

That's what I was getting at. The league grew more and more ferocious as time went while tech advances in equipment evolved that no one truly knows the effects of playing in the NFL in the 70's vs. 90's.

I feel bad for these players but it's hard to find fault with the league.

p the boiler: I knew I could break a leg or something similar growing up when I played - I didn't think I would have had to worry that I would need someone to feed me Jello by the time I turned 45 while wetting my diaper.

I don't blame the NFL though, but I do think this is something the league won't survive

80% of NFL players go completely broke after retirement. What makes you think they would have the foresight to preserve their bodies, much less their money?

Meh, I worded that wrong.

The foresight to what effect their chosen profession will have on their bodies.

pregerstheHobo: This, kind of. Nobody knew they would be vegetables at 45 by playing football. That is not something any coach or parent ever mentions while growing up.

I'm all for full disclosure. The league needs to embrace this and get out ahead of it and treat the players as their partners.

I think they'll eventually get something out of the suit. Meanwhile the 900 .lb elephant in the room is that none of the current players can say they are unaware of this issue... yet I haven't heard of a damn one of them quitting over it. Not a single one.

The cigarette companies didn't lose billion-dollar lawsuits because their products cause cancer. They lost the lawsuits because they KNEW for years that their products caused cancer and lied through their teeth about it.

The NFL won't lose billion-dollar lawsuits because their game causes brain damage. They will lose the lawsuits if there is proof they knew about the dangers of concussions and suppressed those studies.

This is the starting point of any discussion about the NFL lawsuits, but so many people just say "of course football is dangerous, how can they sue?"

Carth: p the boiler: I knew I could break a leg or something similar growing up when I played - I didn't think I would have had to worry that I would need someone to feed me Jello by the time I turned 45 while wetting my diaper.

I don't blame the NFL though, but I do think this is something the league won't survive

They'll survive but I bet we will see a game that looks more like rugby when it is all over.

Try again. Rugby players suffer concussions at comparable (or possibly higher) rates.

From a Time article...
"Further, Michael Keating, the medical director for USA Rugby, says that a review of the scientific literature indicates that the number of incidences of concussions among rugby players and American-football players are similar. Some data suggest rugby incidence is 5% higher."

Brokenseas: The cigarette companies didn't lose billion-dollar lawsuits because their products cause cancer. They lost the lawsuits because they KNEW for years that their products caused cancer and lied through their teeth about it.

The NFL won't lose billion-dollar lawsuits because their game causes brain damage. They will lose the lawsuits if there is proof they knew about the dangers of concussions and suppressed those studies.

This is the starting point of any discussion about the NFL lawsuits, but so many people just say "of course football is dangerous, how can they sue?"

True. And it doesn't help the NFL with image problems when even NASCAR is out front on this issue.

Brokenseas: The NFL won't lose billion-dollar lawsuits because their game causes brain damage. They will lose the lawsuits if there is proof they knew about the dangers of concussions and suppressed those studies.

That's why Goodell needs to stop farking around and being all serious cat about the farking saints and paying lip service to the concussion issue and address CTE (which is about a hell of a lot more than big hit concussions - it's about playing football itself - legally) in an open forum with his partners - the players - and say 'what are we going to do about this?'. And the first step is acknowledging that it exists.

The Nascar comparison is apt. Racing constantly feeds safety research and equipment development. the NFL needs to do the same thing and be at the forefront of safety research and technology, not showing up late and doubting study results. They should be the ones conducting the damn research. Oh, and like I've said before - let a player safety committee be in charge of player fines. It's their necks. make them part of the process, not your enemies. Dumbasses.

senorpogo: From a Time article...
"Further, Michael Keating, the medical director for USA Rugby, says that a review of the scientific literature indicates that the number of incidences of concussions among rugby players and American-football players are similar. Some data suggest rugby incidence is 5% higher."

But no one pays attention to rugby! Therefore the solution is to become more like it!

Grobbley: Is it not enough that they make millions of dollars a year? Do they need hazard pay on top of that?

The vast majority of NFL players, past and present, are not going to make millions of dollars a year. Even today the average salary is just under $2 mil, and the median is less than $800,000. Average career is under 4 years.

And we can make all the jokes about this we want, but the fact remains that the NFL for years had what, at best, can only be described as a cavalier attitude towards concussions. Many times there was outright hostility at the idea that concussions was anything besides a sign of weakness. They weren't alone in this thinking, of course, as it was largely a result of societies views on the subjet, but I don't necessarily think that absolves the NFL from all responsibility. No, I'm not saying that every player in NFL history should be written a $10 million check tomorrow, but I do think the NFL should take more and better steps in ensuring former players are at least taken care of from a medical standpoint.

This is going to fundamentally change the game of football. You may not like it, but it has to happen, if we as a society have anything resembling a conscious left.

jayhawk88: No, I'm not saying that every player in NFL history should be written a $10 million check tomorrow, but I do think the NFL should take more and better steps in ensuring former players are at least taken care of from a medical standpoint.

Sure. Step one - you step on the field you get health care for life and access to mental health care when you're done. It's an expense, sure. But we're talking about a very large revenue stream and a very small number of covered people in the pool - the majority of whom are actually quite fit.

jayhawk88: The vast majority of NFL players, past and present, are not going to make millions of dollars a year. Even today the average salary is just under $2 mil, and the median is less than $800,000. Average career is under 4 years.

Agreed. But for some perspective - and to answer they question why no one has quit despite knowledge of CTE - even those wage slave rank and file NFL'ers making the median for four years, well, it's a shiatload of money. If you're making $60k first year out of college - a fantastic starting salary - it would take you 53 years to earn what you'd earn in four years at the median NFL pay.

JohnBigBootay: Step one - you step on the field you get health care for life and access to mental health care when you're done. It's an expense, sure. But we're talking about a very large revenue stream and a very small number of covered people in the pool - the majority of whom are actually quite fit.

That'll bankrupt 'em down the road - might as well just fold up shop now and pocket the billions. There's not THAT many, but health care costs are obscene, and there are enough guys that make it for a short-term bit that within 20 years there will have been tens of thousands of former players taking that out of the revenue...meanwhile, they're still going to have to pay the players playing...unless people want to just keep paying more and more every year.

IAmRight: JohnBigBootay: Step one - you step on the field you get health care for life and access to mental health care when you're done. It's an expense, sure. But we're talking about a very large revenue stream and a very small number of covered people in the pool - the majority of whom are actually quite fit.

That'll bankrupt 'em down the road - might as well just fold up shop now and pocket the billions. There's not THAT many, but health care costs are obscene, and there are enough guys that make it for a short-term bit that within 20 years there will have been tens of thousands of former players taking that out of the revenue...meanwhile, they're still going to have to pay the players playing...unless people want to just keep paying more and more every year.

You have zero concept of how much money the NFL actually makes, do you?

Genevieve Marie: You have zero concept of how much money the NFL actually makes, do you?

You have zero concept of how medical bills for thousands of people for LIFE rack up, do you? I would say I'm much, much, much more aware of everything surrounding this situation than you are.

I wonder if there would be any way to tell if Junior Seau ever suffered from concussions even though he was never officially listed as having one.

IAmRight: Genevieve Marie: You have zero concept of how much money the NFL actually makes, do you?

You have zero concept of how medical bills for thousands of people for LIFE rack up, do you? I would say I'm much, much, much more aware of everything surrounding this situation than you are.

Is that something else you're a self-professed expert in?

JohnBigBootay: jayhawk88: The vast majority of NFL players, past and present, are not going to make millions of dollars a year. Even today the average salary is just under $2 mil, and the median is less than $800,000. Average career is under 4 years.

Agreed. But for some perspective - and to answer they question why no one has quit despite knowledge of CTE - even those wage slave rank and file NFL'ers making the median for four years, well, it's a shiatload of money. If you're making $60k first year out of college - a fantastic starting salary - it would take you 53 years to earn what you'd earn in four years at the median NFL pay.

Most $60k jobs don't expect you to run as fast as you can into other large, heavily padded men either. Sure there are dangerous jobs out there, and people get hurt at work every day, but almost every rank-and-file job (at least in the first world) will have safety procedures in place to prevent injury, generally take steps to make the work environment as safe as possible. Not until recently has the NFL really cared about player safety that much.

There's no easy answers here. Let's face it: If Russian Roulette was a popular spectator sport with million dollar contracts, there would be people desperate enough to partake. The NFL can't necessarily completely take care of every player who ever makes a roster, but there needs to be more efforts in this area. I think the biggest thing is figuring out how to make the overall game safer for players. They probably need to get rid of kickoffs. They need to figure out the "lead with the head" thing in some way. Maybe they need to institute weight limits by position. I just don't think we can get away with saying "They know the risks, let 'em crash" though.

YouWinAgainGravity: Is that something else you're a self-professed expert in?

I know a bit more about the situation than someone who only shows up in sports threads when there's whining to do about how vicious some things are.

IAmRight: Genevieve Marie: You have zero concept of how much money the NFL actually makes, do you?

You have zero concept of how medical bills for thousands of people for LIFE rack up, do you? I would say I'm much, much, much more aware of everything surrounding this situation than you are.

They wouldn't be paying the medical bills out of pocket. They'd be paying for health insurance for everyone for life. And not every player is going to rack up the same type of medical bills.

You could have the players contribute to the premiums.

skinink: I wonder if there would be any way to tell if Junior Seau ever suffered from concussions even though he was never officially listed as having one.

His ex-wife says he did. It'll be interesting to see how that develops. I hope his family sends his brain to Boston University.

Brokenseas: The cigarette companies didn't lose billion-dollar lawsuits because their products cause cancer. They lost the lawsuits because they KNEW for years that their products caused cancer and lied through their teeth about it.

The NFL won't lose billion-dollar lawsuits because their game causes brain damage. They will lose the lawsuits if there is proof they knew about the dangers of concussions and suppressed those studies.

This is the starting point of any discussion about the NFL lawsuits, but so many people just say "of course football is dangerous, how can they sue?"

They'll lose money because no parent in their right mind will be pushing their kid hard to play football. They'll move on to other, safer sports. At least that's my selfish concern. hope I'm wrong.

Genevieve Marie: They wouldn't be paying the medical bills out of pocket. They'd be paying for health insurance for everyone for life. And not every player is going to rack up the same type of medical bills.

Of course they're not. But if it's health insurance for life, you have 1696 people per year, all of whom are going to have HIGH premiums due to their line of work. If you get it for stepping on the field, we'll be nice and require it to be a regular season game, because it's going to be a TON of extra guys who are only around for camps otherwise. Average career span is 3 years, so let's say there are 565 new players every year (we know this isn't true - there are a few players who have much longer careers, which drives up the actual average).

Now you're getting into the tens of thousands of guys, most of whom are pretty much uninsurable under most regular insurance plans.

Owners aren't just going to let that come out of their pocket - that's getting passed on. With each extra year, the costs go up - there are new guys leaving the league every year.

Now, you could make it similar to retirement plans, you have to be fully vested or something, but that seems kind of silly.

You could make players pay premiums, but that's not really free health coverage for life.

/I guess he didn't say free coverage for life, but I felt it was implied
//health coverage you can't afford might as well not be health coverage
///I am honestly fine with a flag football league

JohnBigBootay: the NFL needs to do the same thing and be at the forefront of safety research and technology, not showing up late and doubting study results. T

Here's the problem: without fundamentally changing the nature of the game, you can't make football any safer. Equipment improvement isn't going to work. There are physical limitations to how much you can reduce the impulse of an impact with a helmet that's a practical size. None of the recent concussion-focused rules changes are going to help (but they provide an illusion of doing something, which is all the NFL really needs). Some rules changes might help, but that would basically be "ban the 3-point stance".

Remember: Theddy Roosevelt nearly banned football with an executive order because it was too dangerous and violent. That's right- a man who gave a speech after having been shot and suffering a sucking chest wound thought football was too dangerous. His pressure led to several safety innovations, including the forward pass.

The next round of changes in football are going to have to be nearly that fundamental. The way the game is played in the Pit is going to have to change. And what happens at the line is so fundamental to everything else about the game that everything's going to look substantially different.

IAmRight: ///I am honestly fine with a flag football league

So am I.

As it is, watching these guys destroy themselves and their health for entertainment is kind of sick.

Genevieve Marie: As it is, watching these guys destroy themselves and their health for entertainment is kind of sick.

I'm okay with them destroying themselves, so long as they're acting with truly informed consent. And that means the NFL has to come clean about CTE and take rational measures to address it.

Genevieve Marie: As it is, watching these guys destroy themselves and their health for entertainment is kind of sick.

I do feel that they're compensated adequately for the risks, however. There are more dangerous jobs that pay less and have far less pleasant working environments. But somehow those are okay because we "need" those jobs filled.

/please, please just go to flag football. Don't make me f*cking watch soccer.

IAmRight: JohnBigBootay: Step one - you step on the field you get health care for life and access to mental health care when you're done. It's an expense, sure. But we're talking about a very large revenue stream and a very small number of covered people in the pool - the majority of whom are actually quite fit.

That'll bankrupt 'em down the road - might as well just fold up shop now and pocket the billions. There's not THAT many, but health care costs are obscene, and there are enough guys that make it for a short-term bit that within 20 years there will have been tens of thousands of former players taking that out of the revenue...meanwhile, they're still going to have to pay the players playing...unless people want to just keep paying more and more every year.

Naw. I'd be willing to bet there aren't ten thousand former NFL players on the planet right now. Even if there is there damn sure ain't twenty thousand. And the TV contract alone is billions of dollars. The money is there. Even if player salaries were halved, half of 53% of billions is still billions. Money is not the problem, its greed that's the problem.

JohnBigBootay: Naw. I'd be willing to bet there aren't ten thousand former NFL players on the planet right now.

There are if you're allowing 'em to qualify based on "stepping on the field."

53 on a roster, 32 teams, 3 year careers (replace people every three years), say they only live 20 years after their career is over...you're going through 500 new players per year plus an initial 1600. And realistically it's more than this, there are guys called up for a game here, a game there for backup/special teams. There would be a lot of pressure not to replace guys who might be hurt because that's another guy you gotta cover for life.

And money is a problem when you know that people who are currently making X million from their business are not going to just take a several million dollar expense and just not bother making up for it - either in increased ticket prices or increased TV rights fees....rights fees go up, they have to sell more ad space to finance it. They sell more ads, we see even LESS football per ad.

No matter what, everyone gets f*cked but the guys with the money. It's how the world works.

t3knomanser: JohnBigBootay: the NFL needs to do the same thing and be at the forefront of safety research and technology, not showing up late and doubting study results. T

Here's the problem: without fundamentally changing the nature of the game, you can't make football any safer. Equipment improvement isn't going to work. There are physical limitations to how much you can reduce the impulse of an impact with a helmet that's a practical size. None of the recent concussion-focused rules changes are going to help (but they provide an illusion of doing something, which is all the NFL really needs). Some rules changes might help, but that would basically be "ban the 3-point stance".

Remember: Theddy Roosevelt nearly banned football with an executive order because it was too dangerous and violent. That's right- a man who gave a speech after having been shot and suffering a sucking chest wound thought football was too dangerous. His pressure led to several safety innovations, including the forward pass.

The next round of changes in football are going to have to be nearly that fundamental. The way the game is played in the Pit is going to have to change. And what happens at the line is so fundamental to everything else about the game that everything's going to look substantially different.

Meh. We still have coal miners, loggers, and crab fishermen. Its not an impossible problem. And the answer is not no helmets like someone suggested. Anyway, my grandparents on both sides worked the coal mines and croaked in their fifties. Those kinds of industries survived potentially ruinous lawsuits and we still have coal miners risking just as much for a lot less money and we still have coal mine tragedies. Neither or bead not or circuses will be taken away anytime soon.

JohnBigBootay: We still have coal miners, loggers, and crab fishermen. Its not an impossible problem

Improving the safety of the game, without substantially changing the nature of the game, is impossible.

But really, based on every story I've read about football players, they're damn near invalids the day after a game. They couldn't figure out that feeling like that 16+ times/year was going to cost 'em later?

/honestly, anyone who hasn't been on a field in front of 60K people cheering...I'd lop off several years of my life voluntarily to do that 50 times or so.

Iamright

" There are if you're allowing 'em to qualify based on "stepping on the field."

Well then they'd just think a little harder about letting someone step on the field if benefit costs didn't justify it. And they could make a tiered benefit system based on length of service, exit physicals signed of on by the nflpa. Solvable problem.

One wonders, if you could step inside a time machine and go back a few decades, and were able to talk to young players about the dangers of concussions, how many would have stopped and said, "okay, I'll willingly pass up something I happen to have been raised to play and which I happen to love because there might be a chance I'll suffer long term consequences?"

I believe that the vast majority of them would not because they're young and indestructible.

JohnBigBootay: Well then they'd just think a little harder about letting someone step on the field if benefit costs didn't justify it.

But that just means they're going to leave injured guys on longer. I agree, it's fixable. I just wanted to point out that there are actually a lot of players in the NFL, especially compared to other sports.

Heat win. Knicks just shot their wad and watched the lead they built just disappear.

jayhawk88: Average career is under 4 years.

I doubt it's the 4-years-or-less guys having these problems, though. I'd bet it's the long career guys (like Seau).

Also what is a quarterback doing in on this suit

BigJake: jayhawk88: Average career is under 4 years.

I doubt it's the 4-years-or-less guys having these problems, though. I'd bet it's the long career guys (like Seau).

Also what is a quarterback doing in on this suit

I think the 4 years and less guys are in the same boat. They all played HS and college, that's 8 years right there

p the boiler: They all played HS and college, that's 8 years right there

Not ALL, but yeah, nearly all.

/at least a few TEs didn't even play football until college
//I don't think Matt Cassel got hit too often in college