pxsteel: Tombstone is the size of a postage stamp and close to a mile high in the mountains. Why don't they just get water from the San Pedro that is 10 miles away.

It's probably even more protected

Well... installation into a nearby, suitable aquifer after acquiring the proper permits would likely solve this impasse.

"...Tombstone failed to show in its lawsuit why the city should be given access without getting federal permits."

They really should subscribe to the "it's easier to ask for forgivness than permission" theory.

violentsalvation: The Forest Service is just being a bunch of petty b*tches doing their job.

FTFY. The rules are in place for a reason. Tombstone wanted special dispensation, and the town's government is throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get it. The state government is hoping this will turn into a larger discussion of state rights vs. federal rights vis a vis water, as water is a very contentious issue in that part of the country.

My hope is that the Forest Service rules stand, and that Tombstone has to figure out how to play nice and not stomp the hell out of the landscape doing so.

dryknife: "...Tombstone failed to show in its lawsuit why the city should be given access without getting federal permits."

They really should subscribe to the "it's easier to ask for forgivness than permission" theory.

Good luck with that. The resulting fines would bankrupt the town, most likely. The fun part is that the damage would already be done - Tombstone would've carved holy hell out of protected land, and they would still have to close up shop.

Arizona = Spanish for you guessed it. What did you think it would be like?

As someone who grew up in Arizona (mostly the Mesa-Tempe-Chandler area), I can tell you that there is no such thing as "water" there. We bought bottled water before it was cool. And by 'bottled water', I mean the 5 gallon jug you paid a quarter to fill up at Basha's. Whatever the judge is withholding, it isn't hurting Tombstone.

/awesome headline

stevejovi: The only problem I have with depopulating Arizona is that the right-wing loonies have to go SOMEWHERE, and they won't all fit in Florida... Montana? Idaho? Alaska, maybe?

Ever hear of a Neutron Bomb?

violentsalvation: pxsteel: Tombstone is the size of a postage stamp and close to a mile high in the mountains. Why don't they just get water from the San Pedro that is 10 miles away.

It's probably even more protected

Isn't the bulk of the San Pedro underground. I know I went to Buena but I remember us learning in geo class that an earthquake 1M years ago put most of the water underground. Birds and frogs can't get to it where it is at, but we can.

stevejovi: The only problem I have with depopulating Arizona is that the right-wing loonies have to go SOMEWHERE, and they won't all fit in Florida... Montana? Idaho? Alaska, maybe?

Poor Jan Brewer, all that disrespect to President Obama and the government about immigration and the stupid birth certificate just came around and bit her on her wrinkly, racist ass.

pxsteel: I know I went to Buena

LMAO

illannoyin: stevejovi: The only problem I have with depopulating Arizona is that the right-wing loonies have to go SOMEWHERE, and they won't all fit in Florida... Montana? Idaho? Alaska, maybe?

[wwp.greenwichmeantime.com image 418x328]

OH HELL NO. We have enough thank you.

Godscrack: Poor Jan Brewer, all that disrespect to President Obama and the government about immigration and the stupid birth certificate just came around and bit her on her wrinkly, racist ass.

He is a vengeful god.

TomD9938: Godscrack: Poor Jan Brewer, all that disrespect to President Obama and the government about immigration and the stupid birth certificate just came around and bit her on her wrinkly, racist ass.

He is a vengeful god.

For the last time, Obama is NOT A GOD!

/Although, if someone asks if you're a god, you say YES

Awwww whaddya need water for anyway? You just need to use the bathroom more!

S.A.S.Q.U.A.T.C.H.: [images.wikia.com image 640x457]

Why yes, friend. I keep my water in this combat shotgun here...

TomD9938: Godscrack: Poor Jan Brewer, all that disrespect to President Obama and the government about immigration and the stupid birth certificate just came around and bit her on her wrinkly, racist ass.


Um, I am pretty sure that the Obama administration started the rift when they blocked the Yuma Refinery. Then Obama's EPA put the screws to Microsemi to the point they went belly up. Then Obama's BLM stopped Freeport from mining their own land.

All before 1070

pxsteel: Microsemi to the point they went belly up.

um.. what? bullshiat

their market value is 1,708,230,510 as of end of trading today Link

prekrasno: I'm your huckleberry.

/gratuitous Tombstone reference

FormlessOne: It's simple - close it down, eject Tombstone's gravity fed system, and tell Tombstone to pack up. It's protected land, and the fact that the townsfolk think they're entitled to do whatever the hell they want to it immediately makes me dig my heels in. You're looking at one small town versus the natural stability of an entire ecosystem - the town can friggin' move.

It does seem to be slightly more complicated than that. The town can show their clear chain of ownership of the water system from long before the area came under federal protection of any sort.

stevejovi: The only problem I have with depopulating Arizona is that the right-wing loonies have to go SOMEWHERE, and they won't all fit in Florida... Montana? Idaho? Alaska, maybe?

Keep the hell out of montana

If You Give a Mouse a Cookie . . .

where mouse = government employee

where cookie = anything that looks like power

S.A.S.Q.U.A.T.C.H.: [images.wikia.com image 640x457]

You are my hero.

Vantango84: So wait... Why didn't they just get the permits off the bat? Is there a reason, or is it "Federal gub'mint evil", like the rest of Arizona's reasoning for things?

After the Monument fire, everyone got along -- at first. Tombstone asked for a Forest Service permit to make the repairs, then waited. By the end of October, the city grew tired of the wait and took an excavator up Miller Canyon, where two of its most productive springs are.

The Forest Service stopped city workers, and sharp words were exchanged. - http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/10/us/tomb stone-water-fight/index.html

and this kinda shows how the Forest Service is acting:

Several weeks ago, the Forest Service stopped Tombstone from bringing in a wheelbarrow for the repairs.

Why on earth?
...
The rangers insisted the wheelbarrow was "mechanized" because it had a wheel.

Asshats.

The rangers were arrogant, Henderson said. They referred to Tombstone officials as "children," right in front of them. Some rangers snickered during a hastily called meeting at the agency's Sierra Vista station.

"If you want permission, you'd better lawyer up," Henderson said he was told. "If you don't like the decision, I suggest you call Barack Obama."

Double asshats.

Oh, and according to the city- they OWN the springs and pipeline:

Tombstone says its pipeline was there first -- before Arizona became a state, before there was a U.S. Forest Service, before the Coronado National Forest was established, and certainly long before the federal Wilderness Act.

The city argues that its rights to the springs were grandfathered in at each step. But the Forest Service is not yet ready to concede. Right after Tombstone applied for its permits, a ranger was dispatched to Tucson to look for records to dispute the city's claim.

That escalated the fight.

Tombstone dug in. The city now insists it owns all 25 springs outright, and has the right to maintain five acres around each one, as well as 25 feet on either side of the pipeline. The city says it doesn't need anybody's permission to work on its own property.

"We had to fight to buy that water line in 1947, and we won," Sosa said. "We own that water line. In 1977, we had a similar fire, and we went in and made the repairs. In 1983, more fires again, and we're still here." Miller Peak became a federally protected wilderness in 1984.

violentsalvation: The Voice of Doom: Vantango84
The Forest Service is using the Wilderness Protection Act to fark over Tombstone when they themselves failed to protect the wilderness during the fire last June.

The forest service doesn't fight fires the same way they used to, you nitwit. Anyone paying attention over the last two decades would know that - the fires are a source of renewal for long term management of wilderness.

"But we recognize the role of natural fire in the health of many ecosystems, and we continue to move forward through research and technology to understand and manage fire better, so when we need to put it out, we can. And when we need to use it, we can do that too-more safely, more effectively than 100 years ago, but not as well as we will 100 years from now."

Link

I visited Tombstone once.

I was at Ft. Huachuca going through AIT. I had the 4th of July weekend off for a 4 day pass. My wife came to town and we were spending the time together.

As something to do, we stopped by Tombstone. Drove out into the middle of the desert to get to it. Tiny little town that seemed like a dessicated and dry-rotted museum display. We got out and walked around a little at boot hill, took a moment to stare at the cheesy gift shop, then got back in the car and drove off.

FormlessOne: dryknife: "...Tombstone failed to show in its lawsuit why the city should be given access without getting federal permits."

They really should subscribe to the "it's easier to ask for forgivness than permission" theory.

Good luck with that. The resulting fines would bankrupt the town, most likely. The fun part is that the damage would already be done - Tombstone would've carved holy hell out of protected land, and they would still have to close up shop.

Um, aren't you aware that between the fire and the massive erosion that followed during the monsoon season, that areas is pretty much farked right now:

"Water rolled off the denuded slopes and gushed into the canyons, forming raging walls that tore down the remaining trees and dropped Volkswagen-sized boulders".
...
"When the rain stopped, some of the springs in Miller Canyon were buried under 12 to 15 feet of rocks and gravel and broken trees. It was total devastation."
...
""We had little gullies up there that are now wide valleys," he said. "We couldn't find the landmarks, and boulders as big as my pickup truck are gone. There was nothing we recognized.""

..so a little temporary 'damage' from running a truck or two up there wouldn't make a lot of difference. The Forest Service is just being asshats:

Several weeks ago, the Forest Service stopped Tombstone from bringing in a wheelbarrow for the repairs.

Why on earth?
...
The rangers insisted the wheelbarrow was "mechanized" because it had a wheel.
...
The rangers were arrogant, Henderson said. They referred to Tombstone officials as "children," right in front of them. Some rangers snickered during a hastily called meeting at the agency's Sierra Vista station.

"If you want permission, you'd better lawyer up," Henderson said he was told. "If you don't like the decision, I suggest you call Barack Obama."

They can afford a nice new Ranger station. (still isn't complete, they got into a battle with the contractor there too.)



But they can't put a new sign up to mark the canyon and trails. Trails that have mostly washed away.



Truly stewards of the forest, preserving its crispy charred remains for all to see. Just about everything is dead, except for the new trees sprouting from the taproots that survived. If there was ever a time to let machinery in, it is now.

ladyfortuna: violentsalvation: The Voice of Doom: Vantango84
The Forest Service is using the Wilderness Protection Act to fark over Tombstone when they themselves failed to protect the wilderness during the fire last June.

The forest service doesn't fight fires the same way they used to, you nitwit. Anyone paying attention over the last two decades would know that - the fires are a source of renewal for long term management of wilderness.

"But we recognize the role of natural fire in the health of many ecosystems, and we continue to move forward through research and technology to understand and manage fire better, so when we need to put it out, we can. And when we need to use it, we can do that too-more safely, more effectively than 100 years ago, but not as well as we will 100 years from now."

Link

Yeah, a little late. Returning a forest to a healthy ecosystem is not accomplished by letting a fire destroy every living thing and starting over.

CitizenTed: And so begins the inescapable de-population of the desert cities. As these folks head north in search of water and arable land, we northerners need to prepare for this invasion. We have the guns and the cover; what we need is more land mines and road blocks.

Don't worry, your area will be re-wilded next. It's all part of the plan.

fredklein: Vantango84: So wait... Why didn't they just get the permits off the bat? Is there a reason, or is it "Federal gub'mint evil", like the rest of Arizona's reasoning for things?

After the Monument fire, everyone got along -- at first. Tombstone asked for a Forest Service permit to make the repairs, then waited. By the end of October, the city grew tired of the wait and took an excavator up Miller Canyon, where two of its most productive springs are.

The Forest Service stopped city workers, and sharp words were exchanged. - http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/10/us/tombs tone-water-fight/index.html

and this kinda shows how the Forest Service is acting:

Several weeks ago, the Forest Service stopped Tombstone from bringing in a wheelbarrow for the repairs.

Why on earth?
...
The rangers insisted the wheelbarrow was "mechanized" because it had a wheel.

Asshats.

The rangers were arrogant, Henderson said. They referred to Tombstone officials as "children," right in front of them. Some rangers snickered during a hastily called meeting at the agency's Sierra Vista station.

"If you want permission, you'd better lawyer up," Henderson said he was told. "If you don't like the decision, I suggest you call Barack Obama."

Double asshats.

Oh, and according to the city- they OWN the springs and pipeline:

Tombstone says its pipeline was there first -- before Arizona became a state, before there was a U.S. Forest Service, before the Coronado National Forest was established, and certainly long before the federal Wilderness Act.

The city argues that its rights to the springs were grandfathered in at each step. But the Forest Service is not yet ready to concede. Right after Tombstone applied for its permits, a ranger was dispatched to Tucson to look for records to dispute the city's claim.

That escalated the fight.

Tombstone dug in. The city now insists it owns all 25 springs outright, and has the right to maintain five acres around each one, as well as 25 feet on either side of the pip ...

Yep just as I figured. While the boots on the ground are just stupid drones those setting policy are not so stupid. They have an agenda which works towards a goal and are implementing it.

pxsteel: TomD9938: Godscrack: Poor Jan Brewer, all that disrespect to President Obama and the government about immigration and the stupid birth certificate just came around and bit her on her wrinkly, racist ass.


Um, I am pretty sure that the Obama administration started the rift when they blocked the Yuma Refinery. Then Obama's EPA put the screws to Microsemi to the point they went belly up. Then Obama's BLM stopped Freeport from mining their own land.

All before 1070

And it was Hillary that started the whole birther crap not Jan "Cryptkeeper" Brewer.

Sagebrush Rebellion

/This type of stuff just really pisses people off.
//I wouldn't want to be a USFS employee in the area.

Nadie_AZ: I've never been to Tombstone. No desire to do so. I loved the movies. But the actual history is ... meh.

Skip Tombstone, head down to Bisbee... Much better, actual stuff to do, better history than Tombstone, and some really nice bars. One of my film classes concentrated on all the different Tombstone/Wyatt Earp themed movies, which we followed up by going down south, spending one night in Tombstone and then continuing on to Bisbee. I had already been down there, so I told my wife we'd stay over in Bisbee instead of heading back that afternoon. I got her to go back down once or twice a year after that. The mining museum is cool, the Bisbee Grand and the Cooper Queen hotels are great to stay in. They also have turned the old Jail into a kind of condo that you can rent for a night or two. There were really only 3 things worth my time in TOmbstone: The Oriental, Big Nosed Kate's(Actually a hole in the floor that used to lead to a mine, the miners would come straight up into the bar at the end of their shift), and the Bird Cage Saloon. Bisbee, on the other hand, I can spend a week there, doing absolutely nothing, just relaxing and enjoying the fact that it's much cooler than Phx.

It's also great for the 4th, nice small town feel to it, cool mining-themed contests, fireworks launched directly over your head from the mine tailings pile, water fights between local kids and the firetrucks during the parade, stuff like that. Tombstone can dry up and drift through the desert like a tumbleweed, for all I care, but Bisbee will always be close to my heart. Besides, I just found out that Doug Stanhope lives there and throws cool parties in his backyard, actually putting on comedy shows with his buddies.

violentsalvation: Returning a forest to a healthy ecosystem is not accomplished by letting a fire destroy every living thing and starting over.

You don't... know much, do you?

/That's why I've had you in Gray "Retard" 5 for the longest time.

This is a job for Rango.

CitizenTed: And so begins the inescapable de-population of the desert cities. As these folks head north in search of water and arable land, we northerners need to prepare for this invasion. We have the guns and the cover; what we need is more land mines and road blocks.

what a shock it will be for the desert folk to discover that Hispanics already live here in the north, and we don't shoot them.

James F. Campbell: violentsalvation: Returning a forest to a healthy ecosystem is not accomplished by letting a fire destroy every living thing and starting over.

You don't... know much, do you?

/That's why I've had you in Gray "Retard" 5 for the longest time.

It is OK I have you in Pink (they call it purple) "Idiot" 5.

Mikey1969: Skip Tombstone, head down to Bisbee...

Actually I have. I stayed in the Copper Queen, too. Great little town- the Old Town. I didn't drive into the other part of town, except for gas.

You are right. It is bar far the better place to visit. For those who haven't been to Arizona, Bisbee is 8 miles from the border of Mexico. I was there in November and it was snowing. Much higher elevation that Tucson or Phoenix.

Makh: This is a job for Rango.

Finally someone makes that connection. Some 90 posts in.....



Came here for this, leaving really disappointed in you Liters.

Been there several times. BF and his 5 younger brothers and 3 older sisters all graduated from Tombstone HS.
It's right next to Huachuca city, AZ and Fort Huachuca. Some important military communications facility.
Driving there is a biatch-50+ miles south away from I-10. Between Tucson and El Paso. Oh and the nice border patrol
people have you stop on the way back to I-10. Doggies and all.
There is NOTHING THERE. Not even a border entry to Mexico (go to El Paso, right, to get shot. Or go to Yuma where
you will find snowbirds from everywhere who WILL keep voting sheriff Joe in even though they are not in Maricopa county).

Protected land??? WTF it's a barren wasteland. Just as hot if not hotter than Phoenix.
Not as violent as El Paso (prolly because of the military base) but literally no snowbird population
like in Yuma, Phoenix, Mesa, Quartzite, Lake Havasu.

"U.S. District Court Judge Frank Zapata said Monday that Tombstone failed to show in its lawsuit why the city should be given access without getting federal permits"

Hello? Anybody in there? Think, Judge Zapata, think! What part of "We need to repair our water supply system" isn't getting through your thick skull?

phxmke: Been there several times. BF and his 5 younger brothers and 3 older sisters all graduated from Tombstone HS.
It's right next to Huachuca city, AZ and Fort Huachuca. Some important military communications facility.
Driving there is a biatch-50+ miles south away from I-10. Between Tucson and El Paso. Oh and the nice border patrol
people have you stop on the way back to I-10. Doggies and all.
There is NOTHING THERE. Not even a border entry to Mexico (go to El Paso, right, to get shot. Or go to Yuma where
you will find snowbirds from everywhere who WILL keep voting sheriff Joe in even though they are not in Maricopa county).

Protected land??? WTF it's a barren wasteland. Just as hot if not hotter than Phoenix.
Not as violent as El Paso (prolly because of the military base) but literally no snowbird population
like in Yuma, Phoenix, Mesa, Quartzite, Lake Havasu.

Craziest post I have read in a while.

Nadie_AZ: violentsalvation: I don't think the Forest Service wants them to get the water. It is a total wasteland and if there was ever a time to allow machinery up in what's left of the forest, it would be now.

You are closer to the situation. I'm sure you can hear the shrieks from where you sit.

Didn't the mayor lobby to make the water lines bigger?

Quick question/threadjack: Why isn't the original comment by violentsalvation that Nadie_AZ cited in the listed comments?

/one-time TFer who's just curious

violentsalvation: Craziest post I have read in a while.

He's on a roll.

thisisyourbrainonFark: Nadie_AZ: violentsalvation: I don't think the Forest Service wants them to get the water. It is a total wasteland and if there was ever a time to allow machinery up in what's left of the forest, it would be now.

You are closer to the situation. I'm sure you can hear the shrieks from where you sit.

Didn't the mayor lobby to make the water lines bigger?

Quick question/threadjack: Why isn't the original comment by violentsalvation that Nadie_AZ cited in the listed comments?

/one-time TFer who's just curious

Put in better English: Why is the the original comment that was cited not in the listed comments?

Nadie_AZ: Mikey1969: Skip Tombstone, head down to Bisbee...

Actually I have. I stayed in the Copper Queen, too. Great little town- the Old Town. I didn't drive into the other part of town, except for gas.

You are right. It is bar far the better place to visit. For those who haven't been to Arizona, Bisbee is 8 miles from the border of Mexico. I was there in November and it was snowing. Much higher elevation that Tucson or Phoenix.

Yeah, Warren's kind of a weird part of town. Some of the old mansions for the mine executives from back in the day are over there... Bisbee really is where all of this immigration stuff first started to break, back in the mid-90's, I can definitely feel their pain after talking to some of those people. Beautiful part of the state, though

violentsalvation

phxmke: Been there several times. BF and his 5 younger brothers and 3 older sisters all graduated from Tombstone HS.
It's right next to Huachuca city, AZ and Fort Huachuca. Some important military communications facility.
Driving there is a biatch-50+ miles south away from I-10. Between Tucson and El Paso. Oh and the nice border patrol
people have you stop on the way back to I-10. Doggies and all.
There is NOTHING THERE. Not even a border entry to Mexico (go to El Paso, right, to get shot. Or go to Yuma where
you will find snowbirds from everywhere who WILL keep voting sheriff Joe in even though they are not in Maricopa county).

Protected land??? WTF it's a barren wasteland. Just as hot if not hotter than Phoenix.
Not as violent as El Paso (prolly because of the military base) but literally no snowbird population
like in Yuma, Phoenix, Mesa, Quartzite, Lake Havasu.

Craziest post I have read in a while.

Well thank you. I am truly humbled by your observation. I am now a "farker" i guess.
Just took me a while to fit in I guess. +internets to you.

thisisyourbrainonFark: thisisyourbrainonFark: Nadie_AZ: violentsalvation: I don't think the Forest Service wants them to get the water. It is a total wasteland and if there was ever a time to allow machinery up in what's left of the forest, it would be now.

You are closer to the situation. I'm sure you can hear the shrieks from where you sit.

Didn't the mayor lobby to make the water lines bigger?

Quick question/threadjack: Why isn't the original comment by violentsalvation that Nadie_AZ cited in the listed comments?

/one-time TFer who's just curious

Put in better English: Why is the the original comment that was cited not in the listed comments?