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You say this as though the current state of Greece isn't actually the goal or intent for most of the wealthier elements and the politicians they've purchased.

How do you say, "you can't tax the job creators" in Greek?

Cythraul: How do you say, "you can't tax the job creators" in Greek?

Herpus derpi moranus.

Cythraul: How do you say, "you can't tax the job creators" in Greek?

A thousand objectivists of the Randian empire descend upon you. Our derp will blot out the sun!

So, basically the problem is that people don't pay enough in taxes?

I thought Nero was Roman?

vpb: So, basically the problem is that people don't pay enough in taxes?

And the rich hoard their money and refuse to help society. Same here.

vpb: So, basically the problem is that people don't pay enough in taxes?

No the problem is that people can't (or wont) afford to pay enough taxes to support a welfare state.

Mentat: Cythraul: How do you say, "you can't tax the job creators" in Greek?

A thousand objectivists of the Randian empire descend upon you. Our derp will blot out the sun!

TONIGHT....WE DERP IN HELL!

The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So, basically the problem is that people don't pay enough in taxes?

No the problem is that people can't (or wont) afford to pay enough taxes to support a welfare state.

Can't it be both?

Seems to me that's a large part of the problem. Everyone saying "It's your problem." No one wants to share in the solution. And that's not class warfare. What we're seeing in Greece is.

Let someone else make the sacrifices and leave me alone.

GAT_00: vpb: So, basically the problem is that people don't pay enough in taxes?

And the rich hoard their money and refuse to help society. Same here.

And Goldman Sachs helped hide their debt.

I'm sorry, but the Greek people lost my respect in this last election.

Electing Neo-Nazi's is a very, very scary thing

unlikely: You say this as though the current state of Greece isn't actually the goal or intent for most of the wealthier elements and the politicians they've purchased.

I am about as far from being a conspiracy theorist that there is (Oswald acted alone, UFOs were experimental and spy aircraft, planes brought down the WTC buildings, etc) and something to me has not seemed right about this whole Greece thing. Someone (Goldman Sachs?) is going to profit hugely when Greece (credit) defaults (swaps). And honestly, with that much money at stake, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that there were people behind the scenes doing the best they can to make sure it happens.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So, basically the problem is that people don't pay enough in taxes?

No the problem is that people can't (or wont) afford to pay enough taxes to support a welfare state.

So in other words "yes".

Wait - the libertarians told me that magical charity ponies would come to the rescue. WHAR PONIES?

gameshowhost: Wait - the libertarians told me that magical charity ponies would come to the rescue. WHAR PONIES?

Thanks. You've now just turned this into a Pony thread. :/

Anal?

vpb: So in other words "yes".

I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few. Not enough coffee.

cman: I'm sorry, but the Greek people lost my respect in this last election.

Electing Neo-Nazi's is a very, very scary thing

I think it was stupid too, but their two main parties were in collusion with Germany to enact economic "solutions" that are not only exacerbating the problem with homelessness and poverty, but haven't come close to fixing the deficit problems they are supposed to solve. It's why people went to the extremes, and it isn't like we can't cite plenty of examples that are way closer to Neo Nazis than they have any right being as supposedly civilized people. People on the right went to the far right and people on the left went to the far left. Now they're being told they didn't do it right and go back and vote again, making sure they properly choose the people who are going to fark them over or they'll stop "helping."

I think it was stupid, but I don't really blame them.

gameshowhost: Wait - the libertarians told me that magical charity ponies would come to the rescue. WHAR PONIES?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So in other words "yes".

I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few. Not enough coffee.

When the few have more combined wealth than all of the many, then yeah you can. It's called society. It's worked for quite a while, until modern conservatism came along and told us that we're doing it all wrong and we need more fedualism.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So in other words "yes".

I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few. Not enough coffee.

Won't somebody think of the billionares?

cman: I'm sorry, but the Greek people lost my respect in this last election.

Electing Neo-Nazi's is a very, very scary thing

All fascists are not Nazis, but all Nazis are fascists.

Cythraul: gameshowhost: Wait - the libertarians told me that magical charity ponies would come to the rescue. WHAR PONIES?

Thanks. You've now just turned this into a Pony thread. :/

unlikely: gameshowhost: Wait - the libertarians told me that magical charity ponies would come to the rescue. WHAR PONIES?

[farm7.static.flickr.com image 500x375]

The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So in other words "yes".

I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few. Not enough coffee.

Yes, it is impossible when only a few pull their weight. Especially when the ones who don't are the ones who control most of the economy.

It is quite possible to support the needs of every person if you can get everyone to pull their weight, as you see in much of Northern Europe.

GAT_00: The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So in other words "yes".

I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few. Not enough coffee.

When the few have more combined wealth than all of the many, then yeah you can. It's called society. It's worked for quite a while, until modern conservatism came along and told us that we're doing it all wrong and we need more fedualism.

When we have people in our country that could fund the food stamp program and the unemployment program for all 50 states and still take home 11 or 12 figures, we have a major problem.

Now, with the country's top vote-getter, the leftist firebrand Alexis Tsipras, talking more and more about nationalizing companies and industries and, in the words of his top economic adviser, "taxing the rich," there is even more incentive to lie low.

I just can't imagine why the rich wouldn't be chomping at the bit to take advantage of such a tempting offer. Who knew people would get so defensive when you want to take everything they own? I guess you learn something new every day.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few.

And this is true because you say it is?

GAT_00: When the few have more combined wealth than all of the many, then yeah you can. It's called society. It's worked for quite a while, until modern conservatism came along and told us that we're doing it all wrong and we need more fedualism.

So this is a new idea, yet you reference feudalism in the same post?? You don't think that there was rich and poor a thousand years ago? A million? You gotta be messing with me.


vpb: Yes, it is impossible when only a few pull their weight. Especially when the ones who don't are the ones who control most of the economy.

What is "their fair share"? And how much should the bottom 10% kick in? And I wouldn't say they control the economy. If they did it wouldn't be in this mess. You think capitalists want anarchy?! No! They want people going to work and producing products. Then they want them headed home buying products!! Only socialist want anarchy. Only when there is nothing will we all be equal.

Lando Lincoln: And this is true because you say it is?

Well I do say it's true. And history has proven me right over and over again.

I'm not claiming to be the first to say it tho.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Only socialist want anarchy.

This is an ignorant and uninformed statement and you should feel bad for making it.

Mentat: Cythraul: How do you say, "you can't tax the job creators" in Greek?

A thousand objectivists of the Randian empire descend upon you. Our derp will blot out the sun!

Then we shall herp in the shade.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: GAT_00: When the few have more combined wealth than all of the many, then yeah you can. It's called society. It's worked for quite a while, until modern conservatism came along and told us that we're doing it all wrong and we need more fedualism.

So this is a new idea, yet you reference feudalism in the same post?? You don't think that there was rich and poor a thousand years ago? A million? You gotta be messing with me.


vpb: Yes, it is impossible when only a few pull their weight. Especially when the ones who don't are the ones who control most of the economy.

What is "their fair share"? And how much should the bottom 10% kick in? And I wouldn't say they control the economy. If they did it wouldn't be in this mess. You think capitalists want anarchy?! No! They want people going to work and producing products. Then they want them headed home buying products!! Only socialist want anarchy. Only when there is nothing will we all be equal.

Lando Lincoln: And this is true because you say it is?

Well I do say it's true. And history has proven me right over and over again.

I'm not claiming to be the first to say it tho.

You say they don't control the economy, yet they have nearly all the wealth. The rich here and in Greece could take 10-15% of the money they control and pay for unemployment, health care and food stamps as well as open up production and increase the economy. But they don't. They care about their accumulated wealth, not stability or health of the nations. They can be just as wealthy and protected and have people begging for scraps so they stay in power. Why would they not want this.

The extremely wealthy know no nationality anymore. Fast travel has allowed them to have homes on multiple continents. Why should they care if country X is in trouble when they can just leave?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Well I do say it's true. And history has proven me right over and over again.

No, it has not. Stop pulling things out of your ass. That's really going to cause you incontinence problems when you're old.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Only socialist want anarchy.

I want anarchy.

What I don't want is chaos.

adamgreeney: You say they don't control the economy, yet they have nearly all the wealth. The rich here and in Greece could take 10-15% of the money they control and pay for unemployment, health care and food stamps as well as open up production and increase the economy.

I don't know if that is true.
I "heard" if you took all the money from all the rich, you could balance the US budget for one year, I don't know if that is true either.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: .. Only socialist want anarchy. Only when there is nothing will we all be equal...

If you want people to think you're serious, you can't make this sort of gaffe.

F.

GAT_00: The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So in other words "yes".

I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few. Not enough coffee.

When the few have more combined wealth than all of the many, then yeah you can. It's called society. It's worked for quite a while, until modern conservatism came along and told us that we're doing it all wrong and we need more fedualism.

New feudalism was a natural result of computers being able to automate the peons out of jobs. Once that happened, there were far less jobs than people to fill them. Feudalism ended when the plague made it so there were less people than jobs. We'll see how this sorts itself out.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: You don't think that there was rich and poor a thousand years ago? A million? You gotta be messing with me.

And the poor died in gutters and spread disease with their bloated corpses. Our society, I thought, had decided that wasn't such a great idea.

Regardless, back to your original point, the only reason we have little choice but to stack the poor on "the backs" of the rich is because the rich have taken everything by manipulating government to remove their responsibility while enshrining protections on their wealth that only they get to benefit from.

You want to talk about class warfare? Let's talk about the proxy war the wealthy have been waging on everyone else via bought government officials for the last couple decades. The whining about "burdening" the wealthy falls on deaf ears when the target of that whining is the people the wealthy robbed in the first place through political donations and private, backroom deals with individuals who are supposed to represent everyone.

... and if you want to know what sort of reaction that will create, look no further than the French Revolution.

By all means, keep swindling and hoarding and bribing the government to protect you. History assures us again and again that your time will come.

Diogenes: Seems to me that's a large part of the problem. Everyone saying "It's your problem." No one wants to share in the solution. And that's not class warfare. What we're seeing in Greece is.

WTF. The problem with Greece is that EVERYBODY fails to pay taxes. This isn't a 1% problem -- it's a 100% problem.

take it up the @55?

Splinshints: The Stealth Hippopotamus: You don't think that there was rich and poor a thousand years ago? A million? You gotta be messing with me.

And the poor died in gutters and spread disease with their bloated corpses. Our society, I thought, had decided that wasn't such a great idea.

Regardless, back to your original point, the only reason we have little choice but to stack the poor on "the backs" of the rich is because the rich have taken everything by manipulating government to remove their responsibility while enshrining protections on their wealth that only they get to benefit from.

You want to talk about class warfare? Let's talk about the proxy war the wealthy have been waging on everyone else via bought government officials for the last couple decades. The whining about "burdening" the wealthy falls on deaf ears when the target of that whining is the people the wealthy robbed in the first place through political donations and private, backroom deals with individuals who are supposed to represent everyone.

So how do we fix it, when about 80% of people are average intelligence or dumber? As society becomes more complex, "regular" people won't be able to keep up and more and more people will have to be provided for since they won't be able to provide for themselves.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: vpb: So in other words "yes".

I just wanted to add the idea that it was impossible to support the wants and needs of every person in the society on the backs of the few. Not enough coffee.

I may be the only one in this thread, but I agree with you. Some people have a hard time hearing the truth.

imontheinternet: [www.addictinginfo.org image 400x300]

... and if you want to know what sort of reaction that will create, look no further than the French Revolution.

By all means, keep swindling and hoarding and bribing the government to protect you. History assures us again and again that your time will come.

The rich have learned some things since then. Back in those days, the French couldn't easily escape to a foreign country with their money. Nowadays, that's incredibly easy for them to do.

BgJonson79: Feudalism ended when the plague made it so there were less people than jobs.

Nope. Feudalism ended with gunpowder. Suddenly, all your expensive vassal knights can be downed at range by some slaves with muskets.

Also the rise of middle class urban artisans who were able to gain prosperity outside of the feudal system.

You can't really argue about employment ratios in an era before jobs even existed. You either farmed dirt or you were a nobleman. There was no mobility.

2wolves: Cythraul: How do you say, "you can't tax the job creators" in Greek?

Herpus derpi moranus.

That would be Latin ;)
/Just sayin'

The lazy folks that leach off of the producers are certainly not to blame. It's those damn rich people. They must have all inherited it from other people that simply inherited it from royalty or something.

Mainly, though, they have done what Greeks, from the richest to those of modest means, have traditionally done: pay as little as they can in the way of taxes.

Gee, I wonder what it would be like if rich Americans did that.