Next he'll tell you how Journalists give you the freedom of the press.


Here is my freedom of speech: Fire this blow hard.

I'm comfortable calling him a pathetic douchebag.

His parents must be proud

In fairness, Hayes and the other panel members distinguished between their respect for the valor of the individual military members who had given their lives with the worthiness of the various causes in which they fought.

Even Newsbusters is willing to give him proper of credit. Did any of you even watch the video? I also have an issue with automatically slapping any fallen soldier with the word hero. It leads to inflated stories about their heroism (the rescue of Jessica Lynch, for example), and an unwillingness for some of the most "patriotic" among us to accept when our soldiers commit crimes or greater atrocities.

If a man dies serving this country, he died a brave, honorable death. If every one of them was a hero then we'd be tossing around a lot more medals. And the fact that he tried to bring up this topic carefully and considerately and you three just beat the shiat out of him for it just proves his point.

If a man or woman. Pardon me.

Yea it's not as if they done anything remarkable like O J Simpson or Rodney King. I'll take a fallen solider myself.

Yes, how dare anyone question the near universal worship of the military in this country.

Hell, he's not even doing that much. He agrees that war dead should be memorialized and honored. He is just questioning whether they should all be called heroes.

But keep acting like he just spit on a WWII vet's grave with your little lib-hate circle jerk.

Oh, and no soldier, dead or alive, ever gave me the right to do anything. Rights are universal and inalienable... unless you think our founding documents were just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning.

Chris, you work for one of the two most polarizing news networks in the universe. How, in God's name, did you NOT know that could ever so slightly be skewed????

vartian: In fairness, Hayes and the other panel members distinguished between their respect for the valor of the individual military members who had given their lives with the worthiness of the various causes in which they fought.

Even Newsbusters is willing to give him proper of credit. Did any of you even watch the video? I also have an issue with automatically slapping any fallen soldier with the word hero. It leads to inflated stories about their heroism (the rescue of Jessica Lynch, for example), and an unwillingness for some of the most "patriotic" among us to accept when our soldiers commit crimes or greater atrocities.

If a man dies serving this country, he died a brave, honorable death. If every one of them was a hero then we'd be tossing around a lot more medals. And the fact that he tried to bring up this topic carefully and considerately and you three just beat the shiat out of him for it just proves his point.

Sorry, I found his statement when discussing "The Meaning of Memorial Day" to be rhetorically proximate to some disgusting vaginal discharge.

skinnycatullus: Yes, how dare anyone question the near universal worship of the military in this country.

Hell, he's not even doing that much. He agrees that war dead should be memorialized and honored. He is just questioning whether they should all be called heroes.

But keep acting like he just spit on a WWII vet's grave with your little lib-hate circle jerk.

Oh, and no soldier, dead or alive, ever gave me the right to do anything. Rights are universal and inalienable... unless you think our founding documents were just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning.

There might be some Revolutionary War soldiers who would disagree. England did not let us go quietly. Moran.

I haven't seen the video but let me play devil's adovocate if I may. It has, in years past, been the perception that the price of OUR freedom is paid in the blood of our brave soldiers halfway across the world in wars that have absolutely nothing to do with our freedom. Iraq and Afghanistan are just the most recent in a long line of these wars where we send the best and brightest off to a meatgrinder to sacrificed at the altar of "freedom".

So, in that sense, I can understand how someone would be uncomfortable idealizing the act of dying in war, especially in wars of choice. It's not that the deceased soldiers aren't exceptionally brave and honorable and worthy of being called heroes, but the act of trumpetting them heroes can have the effect of deflecting criticism away from how our military has been abused and exploited over the last decade.

In that way I can understand the discomfort. Our soldiers AND our vets deserve a hell of a lot better than they've gotten. And no matter how many brave men and women return home in flag draped coffins, there is that nagging realization that they should have never been there in the first place.

I don't know if that makes any sense, and I certainly don't speak for Chris Hayes, but it's another point of view on the issue.

He's right. Simply being a soldier and dying in the line of duty doesn't make anyone a hero.

bojon: There might be some Revolutionary War soldiers who would disagree. England did not let us go quietly. Moran

Way to miss the point. Moran.

I am watching Idiocracy and it looks a lot like the liberal agenda won.

mikeray: I am watching Idiocracy and it looks a lot like the liberal agenda won.

Then the movie is over your head. Stick to Disney cartoons.

_{/This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.™}

Saying what he did on Memorial Day weekend is not exactly the brightest idea, but he didn't really disrespect anyone.

Clearly everyone that ever put on a military uniform for any reason and then somehow died is a hero of the highest caliber.

I keep on saying that the world "hero" is thrown around too liberally.

bojon: skinnycatullus: Yes, how dare anyone question the near universal worship of the military in this country.

Hell, he's not even doing that much. He agrees that war dead should be memorialized and honored. He is just questioning whether they should all be called heroes.

But keep acting like he just spit on a WWII vet's grave with your little lib-hate circle jerk.

Oh, and no soldier, dead or alive, ever gave me the right to do anything. Rights are universal and inalienable... unless you think our founding documents were just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning.

There might be some Revolutionary War soldiers who would disagree. England did not let us go quietly. Moran.

Reading is hard.

violentsalvation: Sorry, I found his statement when discussing "The Meaning of Memorial Day" to be rhetorically proximate to some disgusting vaginal discharge.

We do hero worship a reckless, exorbitant military engine for no reason in this country. Timmy being a soldier doesn't make him a hero, it makes him a soldier. And if he dies for a pointless cause, as basically every military action of the last 30 years has been, well that sucks, but doesn't automatically make him a hero.

Blind hero worship is incredibly dangerous. So is blind patriotism. This is both of those combined.

You know what I think is offensive? Using Memorial Day for sales, putting American flags on every farking thing, thinking you should go somewhere just because they have a gigantic flag flying. THAT'S offensive.

GAT_00:
Blind hero worship is incredibly dangerous. So is blind patriotism. This is both of those combined.


This

Ultra-nationalism is a gateway to fascism.

mikeray: I am watching Idiocracy and it looks a lot like the liberal agenda won.

Good call. You just may of a calibre to be a future president.

I always get uncomfortable when they make a soldier stand up in church and everyone applauds. How do they know how good the guy is? I always think of that video of the soldier throwing a puppy off the cliff and I wonder if a few weeks later he was applauded in church.

Also, little known historical fact: At the front of the church is Christ on the cross. He was scourged and then nailed to it by soldiers.

Triumph: I always get uncomfortable when they make a soldier stand up in church and everyone applauds. How do they know how good the guy is? I always think of that video of the soldier throwing a puppy off the cliff and I wonder if a few weeks later he was applauded in church.

Also, little known historical fact: At the front of the church is Christ on the cross. He was scourged and then nailed to it by soldiers.


wtf are you talking about?

drew46n2: wtf are you talking about?

This video
(Warning: Don't watch if you love dogs)

I sure his parents are proud, they raised such a precious snowflake.

Triumph: drew46n2: wtf are you talking about?

This video
(Warning: Don't watch if you love dogs)


That was horrible.

Just horrible.

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country. "

George C. Scott in "Patton," although the Gen. did not actually say this

feckingmorons: I sure his parents are proud, they raised such a precious snowflake.

I'm not American, but if you think what Hayes has to say about supposed heroes is representative of everything wrong with the other guy, then you really need to recalibrate.

I agree. Being killed doesn't automatically make you a hero.

Wearing a uniform and going to war doesn't automatically make you a patriot or a good guy.

People who think in those terms are ignorant tools.

This thread never stood a chance. It started at DerpCon 1.

feckingmorons: I sure his parents are proud, they raised such a precious snowflake.

Perhaps you can explain how dying in uniform in some god forsaken land automatically elevates a person into the exalted Pantheon of heroes.

Your parents must be proud to have raised such a tool.

GAT_00: violentsalvation: Sorry, I found his statement when discussing "The Meaning of Memorial Day" to be rhetorically proximate to some disgusting vaginal discharge.

We do hero worship a reckless, exorbitant military engine for no reason in this country. Timmy being a soldier doesn't make him a hero, it makes him a soldier. And if he dies for a pointless cause, as basically every military action of the last 30 years has been, well that sucks, but doesn't automatically make him a hero.

Blind hero worship is incredibly dangerous. So is blind patriotism. This is both of those combined.

You know what I think is offensive? Using Memorial Day for sales, putting American flags on every farking thing, thinking you should go somewhere just because they have a gigantic flag flying. THAT'S offensive.

This^

skinnycatullus: Yes, how dare anyone question the near universal worship of the military in this country.

Hell, he's not even doing that much. He agrees that war dead should be memorialized and honored. He is just questioning whether they should all be called heroes.

But keep acting like he just spit on a WWII vet's grave with your little lib-hate circle jerk.

Oh, and no soldier, dead or alive, ever gave me the right to do anything. Rights are universal and inalienable... unless you think our founding documents were just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning.

You make me ashamed to be a liberal.

b2theory: skinnycatullus: Yes, how dare anyone question the near universal worship of the military in this country.

Hell, he's not even doing that much. He agrees that war dead should be memorialized and honored. He is just questioning whether they should all be called heroes.

But keep acting like he just spit on a WWII vet's grave with your little lib-hate circle jerk.

Oh, and no soldier, dead or alive, ever gave me the right to do anything. Rights are universal and inalienable... unless you think our founding documents were just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning.

You make me ashamed to be a liberal.

You make liberals ashamed to be a liberal, so I think its even.

Lionel Mandrake: feckingmorons: I sure his parents are proud, they raised such a precious snowflake.

Perhaps you can explain how dying in uniform in some god forsaken land automatically elevates a person into the exalted Pantheon of heroes.

Your parents must be proud to have raised such a tool.

Maybe when people aren't coming home in caskets we can have a fun debate about the nature of whether they are heroes or not. The reality is that a bunch of 18 - 30 yearolds are getting hacked up and killed because our country sent them over there.

I can understand how calling them a hero might help someone who lost a son, daughter, mother, father, or spouse deal with the horrific tragedy. Put yourself in that position. You might say some crazy things yourself.

b2theory: Maybe when people aren't coming home in caskets we can have a fun debate about the nature of whether they are heroes or not.

We live in a state of near-perpetual war. Soldiers have come in caskets every year between Vietnam and today. You don't delay conversations like this.

b2theory: The reality is that a bunch of 18 - 30 yearolds are getting hacked up and killed because our country sent them over there.

I can understand how calling them a hero might help someone who lost a son, daughter, mother, father, or spouse deal with the horrific tragedy. Put yourself in that position. You might say some crazy things yourself.

We can call them gods if we like, but it would not be true. Yes, people are dying, and that's tragic and horrible. You don't overcome that sadness by lying about what they are dying for.

DamnYankees: b2theory: skinnycatullus: Yes, how dare anyone question the near universal worship of the military in this country.

Hell, he's not even doing that much. He agrees that war dead should be memorialized and honored. He is just questioning whether they should all be called heroes.

But keep acting like he just spit on a WWII vet's grave with your little lib-hate circle jerk.

Oh, and no soldier, dead or alive, ever gave me the right to do anything. Rights are universal and inalienable... unless you think our founding documents were just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning.

You make me ashamed to be a liberal.

You make liberals ashamed to be a liberal, so I think its even.

Super clever!

Seems to me that his main point was more about glorifying the war machine & giving the military unchecked support than it was using the word "hero" for every soldier in the military. Of course, if anyone utters one negative word about the military ever, they are to be skewered endlessly by the frothing hordes. That seems pretty un-American to me.

b2theory: Maybe when people aren't coming home in caskets we can have a fun debate about the nature of whether they are heroes or not. The reality is that a bunch of 18 - 30 yearolds are getting hacked up and killed because our country sent them over there.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Some guy volunteered, some stupid politicians sent him off to a dumb war and he died.

Tragic, yes...heroic, no.

Di Atribe: Seems to me that his main point was more about glorifying the war machine & giving the military unchecked support than it was using the word "hero" for every soldier in the military. Of course, if anyone utters one negative word about the military ever, they are to be skewered endlessly by the frothing hordes. That seems pretty un-American to me.

There is a middle ground to be reached, but lord knows it won't be.

In general, any argument that consists of "X is automatically Y by virtue of Z" is lazy and dangerous. That goes for those who are reflexively pro-military and those who are reflexively anti-military.

The words hero and heroic are way overused in society. He may well be right but unfortunately there's no way to discuss it without the conversation being blown out of context and discussed rationally. In other words, have fun storming the castle!

<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/712 9886/77131837#c77131837" target="_blank">Peter von Nostrand</a>:</b> <i>The words hero and heroic are way overused in society. He may well be right but unfortunately there's no way to discuss it without the conversation being blown out of context and discussed rationally. In other words, have fun storming the castle!</i>

If said this in other threads (mostly TFD), we should use a different word to divide the real heroes from the notso heroic.

I even made a suggestion that we bring back the word "helith" from Middle English (related to German "held", as in "superheld")

GAT_00: violentsalvation: Sorry, I found his statement when discussing "The Meaning of Memorial Day" to be rhetorically proximate to some disgusting vaginal discharge.

We do hero worship a reckless, exorbitant military engine for no reason in this country. Timmy being a soldier doesn't make him a hero, it makes him a soldier. And if he dies for a pointless cause, as basically every military action of the last 30 years has been, well that sucks, but doesn't automatically make him a hero.

Blind hero worship is incredibly dangerous. So is blind patriotism. This is both of those combined.

You know what I think is offensive? Using Memorial Day for sales, putting American flags on every farking thing, thinking you should go somewhere just because they have a gigantic flag flying. THAT'S offensive.

I agree with almost all of that, I do, especially the last part. But this Hayes character is a douchebag for using his "The Meaning of Memorial Day" segment to make sure we realize that service members who gave their lives aren't ALL heroes by his definition, and the only reason we throw that word around so much is because we need to make sure we have MOAR WAR FOREVER.

Yes, grieving mother and widow, your son and your husband..yes well, we appreciate what he did and we sure miss him. But he just wasn't as special as that other guy. Timmay's commanding officer has defined his military history as noble with brief interludes of what was recognized as valor, but there was no heroism witnessed.

cman: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/712 9886/77131837#c77131837" target="_blank">Peter von Nostrand</a>:</b> <i>The words hero and heroic are way overused in society. He may well be right but unfortunately there's no way to discuss it without the conversation being blown out of context and discussed rationally. In other words, have fun storming the castle!</i>

If said this in other threads (mostly TFD), we should use a different word to divide the real heroes from the notso heroic.

I even made a suggestion that we bring back the word "helith" from Middle English (related to German "held", as in "superheld")

I've, not if

/why do I even attempt to type on my iPad. Touchscreen keyboard feels awkward and autocorrect owns my ass on a regular basis

violentsalvation: But this Hayes character is a douchebag for using his "The Meaning of Memorial Day" segment to make sure we realize that service members who gave their lives aren't ALL heroes by his definition, and the only reason we throw that word around so much is because we need to make sure we have MOAR WAR FOREVER.

When else can you make that argument? This is the time you talk about this. I recognize it's going to make people mad, but they should also realize what he's pointing out - Timmy's death probably DIDN'T actually matter. He died for a worthless cause and because of horrible execution, because even after 10 years, we're still trying to fight the last war while we've been fighting this one. And that's a big farking problem.

While you may be upset by hearing that, it should also make you think and wonder what Timmy died for. And there is no good answer. Freedom? We're not fighting anyone who can take any version of freedom away from us, and we haven't for years. They can barely reach us, and except for one colossal failure they haven't. We are safe, and we're sending kids to die in what are effectively corporate wars.

This is when you say this. This is when you stand up and say this is WRONG and these kids shouldn't be dead. You're not a hero if you die for a corporate war. You're just dead.

cman: Touchscreen keyboard feels awkward and autocorrect owns my ass on a regular basis

There's a few reasons I don't have a tablet and my phone is a Droid 4. Chose it over the Razr reboot because of a honest to God keyboard.

violentsalvation: I agree with almost all of that, I do, especially the last part. But this Hayes character is a douchebag for using his "The Meaning of Memorial Day" segment to make sure we realize that service members who gave their lives aren't ALL heroes by his definition, and the only reason we throw that word around so much is because we need to make sure we have MOAR WAR FOREVER.

Why does that make him a douchebag?

He could have said it a lot better. Good soldiers, bad leaders. (for most part)

It's fine to be uncomfortable with labeling the unprivileged men and women who fight for the rich as heroes, when said rich people would really love to send them to their deaths in Iran for that sweet, sweet nationalized oil. (Who could have guessed Iraq and Libya's fields would step up production in response to Iran's posturing?)

Many do heroics things and in the past they really have protected our way of life, but our hero worship of them masks the ugliness of how they've been used recently.

b2theory: The reality is that a bunch of 18 - 30 yearolds are getting hacked up and killed because our country sent them over there.

I can understand how calling them a hero might help someone who lost a son, daughter, mother, father, or spouse deal with the horrific tragedy. Put yourself in that position. You might say some crazy yourself.

The video clip is more about devaluing truey heroic actions and questioning why we need to label them all heroes.

There are a few ways not to get "hacked up and killed" over there. It's not like the government pulled birthdays out of a hat anymore. Dont volunteer. Another way is to demand the government not send those who do volunteer into wars because someone thinks their campaign donors can make a buck OR if it is necessay the men and women fiting it will actually have the right equment and not have hands tied behind their back.

Or you know we can make the parents, spouses, lovers, and children feel better because they were "heroes."