Nailed It!

Hello, airplanes?

I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

We invented it. We get to name it. It's airplane.

"If a distinguished but elderly scientist says something is possible, he is almost certainly right. If a distinguished by elderly scientist says something is impossible, he is almost certainly wrong."

-some distinguished but elderly scientist

dittybopper: Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

We invented it. We get to name it. It's airplane.

Langston: Hello, airplanes?

Technically, it's a rigid airship.

I can't imagine exiting the tethered airship, in all the elements, atop the Empire State Building. Even in nice weather it would be terrifying/exhilarating if sober/drunk.

Yeah, they were totally wrong. These days the passenger zeppelin business is BOOMING.

I am disappoint that they didn't consider (under freight) the haulage of postal mail. Low weight per piece, relatively high value, time sensitive. Though early "air mail" wasn't profitable and many planes were lost, I think?

They do have a point though -- airships lack the advantage of speed that planes have, even if they might be more fuel efficient (guessing they are). They did have a short run as passenger vehicles before oh the humanity Hindenburg and later aircraft capable of profitably carrying passengers across the Atlantic became available (post WW-II bomber derivatives?), and were apparently quite luxurious.

It would've been interesting had helium been commonplace to see how long-haul zeppelin travel would've competed with passenger planes, which I'm sure would've been developed anyhow - speed always sells. Would Zeppelins have become "steerage class" - slow, cramped, annoying (not unlike US Air...) while jet travel remained an upper-class thing? Or would the need for three shifts of a larger crew on a Zeppelin more than destroy any advantage from presumably much lower fuel consumption?

Solon Isonomia: Langston: Hello, airplanes?

Technically, it's a rigid airship.


No, it isn't. A defining characteristic of an airship is that it's "lighter than air" in addition to being powered and capable of directional control (which excludes balloons)

No different from the people who today insist there is no need for the expansion of the launch vehicle field. If the price is right, people will take trips into LEO just to say they've done it. With the Bigalow/SpaceX/Stratolaunch co-operation, you'll be able to vacation in LEO for about what is cost in 1909 (adjusted for inflation) to take a steamship across the Atlantic.

AndreMA: It would've been interesting had helium been commonplace to see how long-haul zeppelin travel would've competed with passenger planes, which I'm sure would've been developed anyhow - speed always sells. Would Zeppelins have become "steerage class" - slow, cramped, annoying (not unlike US Air...) while jet travel remained an upper-class thing? Or would the need for three shifts of a larger crew on a Zeppelin more than destroy any advantage from presumably much lower fuel consumption?

Nope. The Hindenburg took a little over 2 days on a transatlantic run and was very expensive. It cost a lot and was pretty much for the wealthy (look up the design, no steerage). At the same time the Lusitania took 4 days and 19 hours for a transatlantic crossing and could carry a hell of a more people for a lot less per person. To the steerage class money is more more valuable than time, so they'll buy the ticket on the ship and deal with the extra couple of days on board. For the upper class, money means a lot less than time so they'll go buy a first class ticket on a 777. In terms of trans oceanic activities, sea transit owns air transit in terms of cost effectiveness.

Basically if speed is important you pay a premium to spin up a jet turbine or turboprop. If speed isn't important, you go rail or sea and don't dick around with Earth's gravity and air currents. Even if the helium or hydrogen gets you up there for free, there are costs associated with the air frame, the stresses it takes, etc.

The big advantage of airships is they don't need a lot of infrastructure. No runway, no harbor, no rail network, etc. Really just a nice clear field they can drop people off at. The problem is when you have the kind of demand for airship service that makes it worth your while to build a big rigid airship and move people by the hundreds, you might as well just build a road or railway out to location and move the people around.

As the article says, leisure and science. If you're actually moving goods or people en masse you can find cheaper or quicker ways to do it depending on what you want. Airships as the middle of the road solution and mediocre, as cool as they are.

dittybopper: Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

We invented it. We get to name it. It's airplane.

Same for automobile...

On Prof. Langley's experiments with heavier-than-air flight from the New York Times:
"...We hope that Professor Langley will not put his substantial greatness as a scientist in further peril by continuing to waste his time and the money involved, in further airship experiments. Life is short, and he is capable of services to humanity incomparably greater than can be expected to result from trying to fly....For students and investigators of the Langley type there are more useful employments."

The date? December 10,1903, exactly 7 days before the Wright brothers first flight at Kitty Hawk.

Omnivorous: On Prof. Langley's experiments with heavier-than-air flight from the New York Times:
"...We hope that Professor Langley will not put his substantial greatness as a scientist in further peril by continuing to waste his time and the money involved, in further airship experiments. Life is short, and he is capable of services to humanity incomparably greater than can be expected to result from trying to fly....For students and investigators of the Langley type there are more useful employments."

The date? December 10,1903, exactly 7 days before the Wright brothers first flight at Kitty Hawk.

Nice. That's right up there with saying they couldn't hit an elephant at this distance and then being shot. At least you didn't have to wait long before being proved wrong.

Dear ha-ha-guy:

That was a really nice, clear way of drawing the distinction:

"To the steerage class money is more more valuable than time, so..........."

"For the upper class, money means a lot less than time, so........"

Bravo and a hat-tip to you!

Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

Look, I'll give you guys aluminium, but aeroplane? It makes it sound like I need to get to the aeroport on my ten-penny bicycle.

The total profit of the airline industry from 1904 to present is less than zero.

AndreMA: Or would the need for three shifts of a larger crew on a Zeppelin more than destroy any advantage from presumably much lower fuel consumption?

Inevitably the unions would get involved and ruin it, even if only one shift - just like they have ruined everything else in which they have been involved. Bankrupty is not much of an advantage over bankruptier.

SevenizGud: AndreMA: Or would the need for three shifts of a larger crew on a Zeppelin more than destroy any advantage from presumably much lower fuel consumption?

Inevitably the unions would get involved and ruin it, even if only one shift - just like they have ruined everything else in which they have been involved. Bankrupty is not much of an advantage over bankruptier.

Derp. Have unions destroyed the coal mining industry? Agriculture? Anything, really? Let's examine why unions exist in the first place. It's because managers have decided at some point that employees can be farked over at will, and without consequence. Absent crap wages or working conditions, shops as a rule don't go union.

The only reasons airships didn't survive are 1) cheap jet fuel* and 2) assloads of runways built during WW2. Hindenburg was only filled with hydrogen because Nazi Germany was under embargo by the US, and helium is/was a strategic material.

In the future, with airlines pressuring to eliminate local service in the interest of consolidating at major hubs, and the increasing cost of fuel, airships are going to start looking real attractive again. The cost per passenger-mile is WAY lower than for jets, the high ratio of available volume to cargo weight means passenger conditions are vastly preferable to the modern airliner, and it's still much faster than taking a train.

*also jet engine development piggybacking on military funding; virtually every major civil jet engine until the '80s was closely related to a military model.

forgotmydamnusername: Absent crap wages or working conditions, shops as a rule don't go union.

How do you explain teachers and government employee unions? Neither have ever made "crap wages", and neither has had particularly dangerous working conditions.

I actually don't have a problem with unions for coal miners, steel workers, and the like, where there are very real dangers. But if the worst danger you are likely to face is a papercut, then it seems to me that unions aren't really there to "protect" workers, but as a scheme to extort more money and benefits from the taxpayers.

Honestly, would major airline investors disagree at this point?

Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

dittybopper: We invented it. We get to name it. It's airplane.

Game, set, match, ouch.

For the last time it's helium NOT hydrogen!

docmattic: "If a distinguished but elderly scientist says something is possible, he is almost certainly right. If a distinguished by elderly scientist says something is impossible, he is almost certainly wrong."

-some distinguished but elderly scientist

THIS^^

/came for this
// leaving happy
/

dittybopper: How do you explain teachers and government employee unions?

Job security. A single dumbass parent angry over a well-deserved "C-" can get a teacher fired. Government employees are put on the chopping block every time taxpayers want their services without paying for them. They had to unionize to put an end to the derp.

That's kind of why government unions are hyper-paranoid about protecting jobs well beyond a fault. That is the main reason why they exist. I don't have a dog in this fight -- I think they wouldn't be necessary if both sides had a mind for sound policy -- but they didn't spring up out of some raw desire to be greedy. No one becomes a teacher out of some desire to get rich.

dittybopper: forgotmydamnusername: Absent crap wages or working conditions, shops as a rule don't go union.

How do you explain teachers and government employee unions? Neither have ever made "crap wages", and neither has had particularly dangerous working conditions.

I actually don't have a problem with unions for coal miners, steel workers, and the like, where there are very real dangers. But if the worst danger you are likely to face is a papercut, then it seems to me that unions aren't really there to "protect" workers, but as a scheme to extort more money and benefits from the taxpayers.

Teachers did make crap wages until at least the '50s, and often had some onerous things written into employment contracts, such as "Get married and you're out!" I'll have to admit some ignorance as to the history of wages and working conditions for State and Federal employees. I know that in the 19th Century, government jobs were handed out as rewards for political allies, and not just the top positions like today. Your mailman changed when the President did. What role unions had in implementing civil service protections from that sort of crap I don't know, although it seems like a natural for getting organized.

natazha: No different from the people who today insist there is no need for the expansion of the launch vehicle field. If the price is right, people will take trips into LEO just to say they've done it. With the Bigalow/SpaceX/Stratolaunch co-operation, you'll be able to vacation in LEO for about what is cost in 1909 (adjusted for inflation) to take a steamship across the Atlantic.

So in a hundred years commercial LEO ships will be giant ad spaces flying over our space football fields but otherwise be non-existent?

lecas: docmattic: "If a distinguished but elderly scientist says something is possible, he is almost certainly right. If a distinguished by elderly scientist says something is impossible, he is almost certainly wrong."

-some distinguished but elderly scientist

THIS^^

/came for this
// leaving happy
/

Glad I could oblige.

dragonchild: dittybopper: How do you explain teachers and government employee unions?

Job security. A single dumbass parent angry over a well-deserved "C-" can get a teacher fired. Government employees are put on the chopping block every time taxpayers want their services without paying for them. They had to unionize to put an end to the derp.

Bullshiat. Teachers almost never go on strike because of something like that. It's almost always for more pay or more benefits.

dittybopper: Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

We invented it. We get to name it. It's airplane.

You invented the aeroplane. Some idiots later on started calling it the airplane and it stuck. Link

Faddy: dittybopper: Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

We invented it. We get to name it. It's airplane.

You invented the aeroplane. Some idiots later on started calling it the airplane and it stuck. Link

Good try, but (a) too late; and (b) funny > factual

would all y'all biatching about unions feel better if we just started calling them trade guilds instead? makes it sound like something out of star wars and the SCA all wrapped into one!

I'm a member of the Craft brewers Guild of Virginia, because, I'm a craft brewer, and I live in Virginia. we exist to promote our industry, and make legislation to rewrite and benefit our trade.

Am I part of the problem?

AndreMA: Solon Isonomia: Langston: Hello, airplanes?

Technically, it's a rigid airship.


No, it isn't. A defining characteristic of an airship is that it's "lighter than air" in addition to being powered and capable of directional control (which excludes balloons)

A rigid air ship would be a zeppelin type featuring a rigid covered frame and buoyancy bags filled with lighter than air gas. If its a non rigid air bag, that contains all of the lighter than air gas, its a blimp.

An Airplane is a fixed wing, self propelled, heavier than air craft..

kenny's mom: Dear ha-ha-guy:

That was a really nice, clear way of drawing the distinction:

"To the steerage class money is more more valuable than time, so..........."

"For the upper class, money means a lot less than time, so........"

Bravo and a hat-tip to you!

"Steerage Class" also is a nice and encompassing label with a variety of applications. I might try to use it but I think there's a large segment of the population (most of whom probably fit into the classification) who won't know what steerage refers to. Not that I'm probably going to end up talking to any of them, of course....

dittybopper: forgotmydamnusername: Absent crap wages or working conditions, shops as a rule don't go union.

How do you explain teachers and government employee unions? Neither have ever made "crap wages", and neither has had particularly dangerous working conditions.

I actually don't have a problem with unions for coal miners, steel workers, and the like, where there are very real dangers. But if the worst danger you are likely to face is a papercut, then it seems to me that unions aren't really there to "protect" workers, but as a scheme to extort more money and benefits from the taxpayers.

Teacher salaries in some areas still start in the sub 30k range. For someone with a four-year degree. Tell me that's not a crappy salary.

It is not an airship! It is a Zeppelin!! GET OFF MY ZEPPELIN!

LazarusLong42: Teacher salaries in some areas still start in the sub 30k range. For someone with a four-year degree. Tell me that's not a crappy salary.

Then there are idiots who like to point out that some teachers in the Bay Area (gasp!) make around 90k a year.

Ask anyone who's lived in the Bay Area if that's a big deal.

/ How did we get to this, anyway?

The_EliteOne
What about that aren't you getting?

dittybopper: Faddy: I think airplane is my most hated Amercanism. Aeroplane please.

We invented it. We get to name it. It's airplane.
HempHead: The total profit of the airline industry from 1904 to present is less than zero.

Having moved people and goods at those costs is worth supporting an unprofitable industry.

LavenderWolf: Having moved people and goods at those costs is worth supporting an unprofitable industry.

I totally agree. I mean where would this country be if we couldn't fly in roses from Chile for Valentines Day or fly Maine lobster to Denver. Chaos is what it would mean. Complete and utter chaos.

HempHead: LavenderWolf: Having moved people and goods at those costs is worth supporting an unprofitable industry.

I totally agree. I mean where would this country be if we couldn't fly in roses from Chile for Valentines Day or fly Maine lobster to Denver. Chaos is what it would mean. Complete and utter chaos.

Yeah. You're right.

Silly organ-needing near death patients, getting untold thousands of you new hearts, livers, kidneys, etc. just isn't worth running airlines at a loss.

/Insert any serious use of air transport here
//rather than your citing of an actually silly use