From my other thread:

For some reason, a lot of people have been trying to put forth Estonia as some sort of proof that government austerity leads to economic growth in the last few days. However, I don't know if you can really hold them up as a paragon of austerity. They receive over 3.4 billion euros from the EU as part of a structural assistance fund, and if you look at the breakdown of their annual budget for 2011, practically every government revenue for every sector of spending is supplemented by foreign funding.

Besides, if you look at the Eurozone right now, there's 10 countries in recession right now, all of whom are in it because austerity measures (even ones where there isn't a particularly immediate debt problem) became such a drag on the economy that they all fell back. Given the track record of austerity, I'd say it's still a bust.

RexTalionis: From my other thread:

From THE other thread, not my thread. I think these two Estonia-related threads are retarded.

Wait, I thought socialist Europe was bad and we should reject their policies?

BUT SAINT SARAH SAID AUSTERITY WORKS WHY WOULD SHE LIE

The average monthly take-home pay of 697 euros ($870) is among the lowest in the euro zone and unemployment at 11.7 percent is still above the bloc's average.

I think being the cheapest place in the Euro Zone has something to do with it also. The cost of doing business puts them at a competitive advantage against the other countries. And lets face it, their public salary cuts of 10% are nothing. You would have to cut Greece's public salaries by 90% in order to make a dent on their deficits.

Well, goody then. Plucky little Estonia can become the arsenal of democracy. Let her send her youth halfway around the world for a decade in open, unending wars.

Have fun Estonia. Don't call us when you get in a jam.

Remember when conservatives were touting Ireland as the shining example of capitalist awesomeness?

Estonia GDP
Link (pops)

US GDP
Link (pops)

/walks away from keyboard.

The average monthly take-home pay of 697 euros ($870) is among the lowest in the euro zone and unemployment at 11.7 percent is still above the bloc's average.

Sounds like a workers paradise. I guess the new measure of prosperity is if the government is doing financially well, not the people.

Oh goodie, just what Fark needs - another thread extolling the necessity and virtues of giving more money to rich people.

TheShavingofOccam123: Well, goody then. Plucky little Estonia can become the arsenal of democracy. Let her send her youth halfway around the world for a decade in open, unending wars.

Have fun Estonia. Don't call us when you get in a jam.

Are you trying to prevent any work from being done today?

threadjackistan: TheShavingofOccam123: Well, goody then. Plucky little Estonia can become the arsenal of democracy. Let her send her youth halfway around the world for a decade in open, unending wars.

Have fun Estonia. Don't call us when you get in a jam.

Are you trying to prevent any work from being done today?

Who knew it was a video game?

Dinki: I guess the new measure of prosperity is if the government is doing financially well, not the people.

That's pretty much exactly what austerity's designed to do.

dragonchild: Dinki: I guess the new measure of prosperity is if the government is doing financially well, not the people.

That's pretty much exactly what austerity's designed to do.


The problem is you can't have a prosperous government without a prosperous population. It is not sustainable.

Wait. Listen. ....hear that? That's the sound of every Republican having a simultaneous orgasm.

There is no evidence that austerity has worked ANYWHERE and plenty of evidence that supports the idea that government stimulus efforts help economies out of recession. Oh, and your BLOG SUCKS. (yes, I know it's CNBC)

RexTalionis: From my other thread:

For some reason, a lot of people have been trying to put forth Estonia as some sort of proof that government austerity leads to economic growth in the last few days. However, I don't know if you can really hold them up as a paragon of austerity. They receive over 3.4 billion euros from the EU as part of a structural assistance fund, and if you look at the breakdown of their annual budget for 2011, practically every government revenue for every sector of spending is supplemented by foreign funding.

Besides, if you look at the Eurozone right now, there's 10 countries in recession right now, all of whom are in it because austerity measures (even ones where there isn't a particularly immediate debt problem) became such a drag on the economy that they all fell back. Given the track record of austerity, I'd say it's still a bust.

It also may be that different things work for different countries. And, it could also be in how austerity is implemented. Estonia could've been so far in the toilet already that austerity wouldn't have made a huge difference in a declining standard of living. That, coupled with bailouts, could've very well helped Estonia recover like it did.

IANAE, so YMMV.

It also sounded like, from what I gathered from TFA, that many Estonians were able to "deal with it", considering where they had come from (i.e. long-time Soviet oppression, and their latest economic downturn).

Again, what works for one country may not work for another.

Oh, and hey, if I had bothered to read the WHOLE article, I would've read what I had just written.

:-/

xanadian: RexTalionis: From my other thread:

For some reason, a lot of people have been trying to put forth Estonia as some sort of proof that government austerity leads to economic growth in the last few days. However, I don't know if you can really hold them up as a paragon of austerity. They receive over 3.4 billion euros from the EU as part of a structural assistance fund, and if you look at the breakdown of their annual budget for 2011, practically every government revenue for every sector of spending is supplemented by foreign funding.

Besides, if you look at the Eurozone right now, there's 10 countries in recession right now, all of whom are in it because austerity measures (even ones where there isn't a particularly immediate debt problem) became such a drag on the economy that they all fell back. Given the track record of austerity, I'd say it's still a bust.

It also may be that different things work for different countries. And, it could also be in how austerity is implemented. Estonia could've been so far in the toilet already that austerity wouldn't have made a huge difference in a declining standard of living. That, coupled with bailouts, could've very well helped Estonia recover like it did.

IANAE, so YMMV.

It also sounded like, from what I gathered from TFA, that many Estonians were able to "deal with it", considering where they had come from (i.e. long-time Soviet oppression, and their latest economic downturn).

Again, what works for one country may not work for another.

I've been told that this reasoning isn't valid. I've been told that the Scandinavian model of social services will work everywhere and that I can't point out that there are significant differences between Scandinavian countries and the rest of the first world when it comes to things like natural resources, culture, etc that make their road fairly smooth compared to elsewhere.

Dinki: The problem is you can't have a prosperous government without a prosperous population. It is not sustainable.

Sure you can. It's quite easy, in fact. A government that is very small but provides few or no services can enrich the few within it at very low cost to the public. For example, if we limit our view to the Royal Family alone, on a per-capita basis it takes very little revenue for them to live in opulent luxury. Hell, just look at Best Korea.

One reason why I get nervous when everyone focuses on the size of our government as opposed to what we get out of it.

Estonia is the shining star of the Euro zone

. . . where "shining star" is defined as 11.7% unemployment.

/But hey, at least the rich are doing well

FTFA: "Everybody had to give a little bit. Salaries paid out of the budget were all cut, but we cut ministers' salaries by 20 percent and the average civil servants' by 10 percent," Parts told GlobalPost.

Austerity is easier to swallow if truly everyone has to sacrifice. The problem with the rest of Europe and America is that there's a monied class that thinks they both had nothing to do with the collapse and should share none of the sacrifice.

Wendy's Chili: Remember when conservatives were touting Ireland as the shining example of capitalist awesomeness?

LIAR! That never happened!

_{/OK, maybe it did}

Estonia has some damn fine looking women.

I just thought you should know that.

Oh! I'm impressed. That looks like my a plot of my IQ vs. BAC on a Friday night.

Also, just in case anyone wants to defend this idiotic shiat as being meaningful.

Estonia's Population: 1.34 million as of 2010.

Or roughly about the size of San Antonio, TX.

What next, we discover that the Hansens of 11412 E. Lukjek St. in Glendale saved money on their car insurance by switching to Geico?

bhcompy: xanadian: RexTalionis: From my other thread:

For some reason, a lot of people have been trying to put forth Estonia as some sort of proof that government austerity leads to economic growth in the last few days. However, I don't know if you can really hold them up as a paragon of austerity. They receive over 3.4 billion euros from the EU as part of a structural assistance fund, and if you look at the breakdown of their annual budget for 2011, practically every government revenue for every sector of spending is supplemented by foreign funding.

Besides, if you look at the Eurozone right now, there's 10 countries in recession right now, all of whom are in it because austerity measures (even ones where there isn't a particularly immediate debt problem) became such a drag on the economy that they all fell back. Given the track record of austerity, I'd say it's still a bust.

It also may be that different things work for different countries. And, it could also be in how austerity is implemented. Estonia could've been so far in the toilet already that austerity wouldn't have made a huge difference in a declining standard of living. That, coupled with bailouts, could've very well helped Estonia recover like it did.

IANAE, so YMMV.

It also sounded like, from what I gathered from TFA, that many Estonians were able to "deal with it", considering where they had come from (i.e. long-time Soviet oppression, and their latest economic downturn).

Again, what works for one country may not work for another.

I've been told that this reasoning isn't valid. I've been told that the Scandinavian model of social services will work everywhere and that I can't point out that there are significant differences between Scandinavian countries and the rest of the first world when it comes to things like natural resources, culture, etc that make their road fairly smooth compared to elsewhere.

Do you really think one can compare the culture homogeneous countries like the Scandinavian ones with the 310-million-person melting pot that is the US? If so, in what way(s)?

Soup4Bonnie: Estonia has some damn fine looking women.

I just thought you should know that.


I think we will need some photographic evidence of that claim, please.

bhcompy:

I've been told that this reasoning isn't valid. I've been told that the Scandinavian model of social services will work everywhere and that I can't point out that there are significant differences between Scandinavian countries and the rest of the first world when it comes to things like natural resources, culture, etc that make their road fairly smooth compared to elsewhere.

What are these 'significant differences'? Granted, Norway has oil and Sweden has timber, hydro, and mining, but their economies aren't hugely different from comparable first world countries. Hell, Canada looks, acts, and smells like the US in almost every conceivable way and we have 'northern-European style services'. If you have a point to make, it's that the will to do these things doesn't exist in the same way in the US.

unyon: bhcompy:

I've been told that this reasoning isn't valid. I've been told that the Scandinavian model of social services will work everywhere and that I can't point out that there are significant differences between Scandinavian countries and the rest of the first world when it comes to things like natural resources, culture, etc that make their road fairly smooth compared to elsewhere.

What are these 'significant differences'? Granted, Norway has oil and Sweden has timber, hydro, and mining, but their economies aren't hugely different from comparable first world countries. Hell, Canada looks, acts, and smells like the US in almost every conceivable way and we have 'northern-European style services'. If you have a point to make, it's that the will to do these things doesn't exist in the same way in the US.

In my experience most of the time when someone on Fark says that something won't work in the US because it has a different culture or because the US is a melting pot, what they mean is their minority of choice would cost to much, or might get a free lunch.

I think the real difference between the US and Canada is we can look at an idea like single payer health care and our first thought isn't "How can I make a buck off this?" You can see what happens when that mentality comes to Canada though. The government of Alberta seems desperate to break our healthcare system.

Jormungandr: unyon: bhcompy:

I've been told that this reasoning isn't valid. I've been told that the Scandinavian model of social services will work everywhere and that I can't point out that there are significant differences between Scandinavian countries and the rest of the first world when it comes to things like natural resources, culture, etc that make their road fairly smooth compared to elsewhere.

What are these 'significant differences'? Granted, Norway has oil and Sweden has timber, hydro, and mining, but their economies aren't hugely different from comparable first world countries. Hell, Canada looks, acts, and smells like the US in almost every conceivable way and we have 'northern-European style services'. If you have a point to make, it's that the will to do these things doesn't exist in the same way in the US.

In my experience most of the time when someone on Fark says that something won't work in the US because it has a different culture or because the US is a melting pot, what they mean is their minority of choice would cost to much, or might get a free lunch.

I think the real difference between the US and Canada is we can look at an idea like single payer health care and our first thought isn't "How can I make a buck off this?" You can see what happens when that mentality comes to Canada though. The government of Alberta seems desperate to break our healthcare system.

For better or for worse, the USA is more economically, racially, and culturally diverse than any other country, and that makes it difficult to get anything done.

Wow. Their budget spreadsheets must be amazing. I'll bet that makes living in a total sh*thole completely worth it.

dameron: Also, just in case anyone wants to defend this idiotic shiat as being meaningful.

Estonia's Population: 1.34 million as of 2010.

Or roughly about the size of San Antonio, TX.

What next, we discover that the Hansens of 11412 E. Lukjek St. in Glendale saved money on their car insurance by switching to Geico?

Well played.

Dinki: Soup4Bonnie: Estonia has some damn fine looking women.

I just thought you should know that.


I think we will need some photographic evidence of that claim, please.

Wendy's Chili: Remember when conservatives were touting Ireland as the shining example of capitalist awesomeness?

Ireland is doing comparatively better than the other PIIGS, despite the huge cost of their bank bailout. The reason they are doing comparatively well is again, austerity.

Debeo Summa Credo: Wendy's Chili: Remember when conservatives were touting Ireland as the shining example of capitalist awesomeness?

Ireland is doing comparatively better than the other PIIGS, despite the huge cost of their bank bailout. The reason they are doing comparatively well is again, austerity.

Yes, Ireland is booming Irish unemployment rate hits crisis-high 14.8 percent

Dinki: Debeo Summa Credo: Wendy's Chili: Remember when conservatives were touting Ireland as the shining example of capitalist awesomeness?

Ireland is doing comparatively better than the other PIIGS, despite the huge cost of their bank bailout. The reason they are doing comparatively well is again, austerity.

Yes, Ireland is booming Irish unemployment rate hits crisis-high 14.8 percent

Theyre not booming, but they're doing comparatively better than others like Spain, Portugal, and Greece. They were about to return to the debt markets this month but have been slowed down by Greeces clusterfark.

Estonia is in no way the crowning jewel of austerity. In fact the opposite is true.

They were given billions of Euros right after the crash when they joined the EU. Heck, I bet almost half their government is running on other people's money.

HellRaisingHoosier: Estonia is in no way the crowning jewel of austerity. In fact the opposite is true. They were given billions of Euros right after the crash when they joined the EU. Heck, I bet almost half their government is running on other people's money.

They're the Curt Schilling of bootstrappy governments, then?

Sergeant Grumbles: FTFA: "Everybody had to give a little bit. Salaries paid out of the budget were all cut, but we cut ministers' salaries by 20 percent and the average civil servants' by 10 percent," Parts told GlobalPost.

Austerity is easier to swallow if truly everyone has to sacrifice. The problem with the rest of Europe and America is that there's a monied class that thinks they both had nothing to do with the collapse and should share none of the sacrifice.

yep, that bit also caught my eye as well.

dameron: Also, just in case anyone wants to defend this idiotic shiat as being meaningful.

It is meaningful in its own way. Doesn't mean that it translates well to other place, but by most standards, they are doing pretty well.


Good for them and leave it at that.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Their budget spreadsheets must be amazing.

Not really amazing, but they have the ability to pay their bills without sacrificing the long term financial stability. Can't say that about a pretty large number of other countries.

Why do they call it socialist Europe when the US has all of the same social programs and a nearly identical tax rate?

Fark_Guy_Rob: Why do they call it socialist Europe when the US has all of the same social programs and a nearly identical tax rate?

Source?

From the article:

"Among the young, there is a widespread awareness that in a nation of just 1.3 million people, the freedom and opportunities their generation enjoy depends on unity in times of crisis."

Sigh. Why do people constantly compare the uncomparable? By contrast, Greece is about 51,000 square miles and Estonia is about 18,000 mi^2. Taking into account the habitable surface area, which for both countries is about 68% [no citation needed - it's obvious], you have a much more manageable Estonia.

The United states is 3.8 million m^2. You see where I'm going with this? If you want to manage a large population out of debt, your target size and population is the size of Estonia. Beyond that, certain social programs simply will not work, like universal healthcare and public sector unions.

Too bad "IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CITIZENS TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES" didn't explicitly appear in our constitution.

Yes, let's do things like Estonia, austerity austerity austerity..

Oh by the way:

Estonia also has a national health insurance, that is a big help in buget balancing as nation's which such plans generally spend half the amount, as a percentage of GDP, as countries that don't. So we should do that too.

Dinki: Soup4Bonnie: Estonia has some damn fine looking women.

I just thought you should know that.


I think we will need some photographic evidence of that claim, please.

Next time I go over for a haircut and some beer, I will have a third mission.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Wow. Their budget spreadsheets must be amazing. I'll bet that makes living in a total sh*thole completely worth it.

You're confusing Estonia with Cleveland and or Detroit again.

Debeo Summa Credo: Dinki: Debeo Summa Credo: Wendy's Chili: Remember when conservatives were touting Ireland as the shining example of capitalist awesomeness?

Ireland is doing comparatively better than the other PIIGS, despite the huge cost of their bank bailout. The reason they are doing comparatively well is again, austerity.

Yes, Ireland is booming Irish unemployment rate hits crisis-high 14.8 percent

Theyre not booming, but they're doing comparatively better than others like Spain, Portugal, and Greece. They were about to return to the debt markets this month but have been slowed down by Greeces clusterfark.

Like Ireland, 1/3 of the workers under 30 have immigrated.

So the President of Estonia is now in a Twitter feud with Paul Krugman.

I love the modern world.