I don't get how this happens... I have never had surgery where I didn't talk to the doctor who would be operating on me beforehand.

Sure, some anonymous dude in the back of the McDonald's might make your burger, but don't you want to at least see the person who is going to be cutting into you, even if it's just a "small growth"?

My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

Well on the bright side it was for "free".

RTFM

They gonna take it out and set it on the table beside you and you can look over at it. Touch it even. Taste it if you want.

fta:
But instead of just removing the growth, the surgeon allegedly chiseled away the entire hip joint, and put it on the operating table before the mistake was discovered.

You know that sinking feeling when you realize you hit D9 instead of D8 on the vending machine and get Doritos instead of Sun Chips? It's like that TIMES A BILLION BILLION.

timujin: I don't get how this happens... I have never had surgery where I didn't talk to the doctor who would be operating on me beforehand.

Seriously. I've had a lot of surgeries, and every time, the physician and his staff go over what they're doing and mark me prior to putting me to sleep. If I went into surgery and a doctor didn't do that, I'd leave and go the fark home. Like you said, this isn't screwing up your burger order. You have to live with surgeons' errors forever.

Crackers Are a Family Food: timujin: I don't get how this happens... I have never had surgery where I didn't talk to the doctor who would be operating on me beforehand.

Seriously. I've had a lot of surgeries, and every time, the physician and his staff go over what they're doing and mark me prior to putting me to sleep. If I went into surgery and a doctor didn't do that, I'd leave and go the fark home. Like you said, this isn't screwing up your burger order. You have to live with surgeons' errors forever.

Even with all the checks put into place these days stuff like this still happens. The "time-out" before surgery begins is supposed to be the final check prior to beginning surgery so everyone knows what is going on, and even then unless someone in the room is paying attention things can get overlooked.

One thing I try to keep in mind with all types of doctors is that you are "their job". Think of how many different things you blow off in the course of your daily work. Docs are human just like you, and they do the same things. Therefore, it is important to make sure you take every precaution you can. Not to be malicious or mean-spirited, just to make sure you are protected.

cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

This was actually procedure when I had ear surgery. It was written on a nice poster on the wall and we were provided a sharpie (taken from a nice sterile package, wonder how much that cost) to mark which body part was to be operated on.

This could have been prevented by a simple checklist. Just have one of the nurses work his/her way through it and have one of the items be "The goal of this surgery is X (remove a growth from the hip in this case), read this aloud to the surgeon."

MycroftHolmes: cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

This was actually procedure when I had ear surgery. It was written on a nice poster on the wall and we were provided a sharpie (taken from a nice sterile package, wonder how much that cost) to mark which body part was to be operated on.

I just had an inguinal hernia repaired and they marked me up prior to surgery. After a good shave. Unfortunately the med tech doing the shaving never bothered to read my chart and assumed it was my right side for some reason when it was actually my left. She took out the clippers and started uncovering my right side and I was like "uhh... other side lady." She was embarrassed, as she probably should have been.

I'm not shocked that this happened. Just very shocked that this wasn't in America.


Then again, it's Sweden. Maybe they were using the Ikea instructions on how to perform hip surgery.

He needs more practice...

Did he not notice there was no hip replacement in the operating room.

From reading the article's comments I gather that the woman can't sue for damages? That's crazy. She's stuck with whatever the hospital decides to give her for their error?

cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

That would be a good time to play a joke on the doctor. Write 'other hip' on hip, and 'other hip' on the other. If it's a Polish doctor, he might be there for a while trying to figure it out. Either way you both get a good laugh out of it.

uncleacid: Did he not notice there was no hip replacement in the operating room.

That's probably when they realised the mistake. He asks the nurse "Where's the replacement hip joint" and she says "We're not replacing a hip joint, why do you need one" and the doctor says "uh-oh."

MythDragon: cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

That would be a good time to play a joke on the doctor. Write 'other hip' on hip, and 'other hip' on the other. If it's a Polish doctor, he might be there for a while trying to figure it out. Either way you both get a good laugh out of it.

That would be funny, though the 4 inch scar from the last one would probably give it away.

IANAD, but wouldn't he have noticed that the hip in question was healthy and didn't need replacement?

MythDragon: uncleacid: Did he not notice there was no hip replacement in the operating room.

That's probably when they realised the mistake. He asks the nurse "Where's the replacement hip joint" and she says "We're not replacing a hip joint, why do you need one" and the doctor says "uh-oh."

If only. At least a few of the nurses had to see that he was sawing off the whole hip bone instead of just filing off a bone growth. The anesthesiologist should have noticed that the procedure was taking much longer than expected. Everyone in the room should have noticed that things weren't going according to plan after the first hour or so.

/fire them all
//with real fire

My last "procedure" the doctor was talking with me and stuff, they gave me the sedative and then he looked over and said.. oh oh.... I forgot to get you to read this and sign it..

I could barely keep my eyes open as I read this huge page of what the procedure was and what rights I was giving the doctor ( oddly enough no matter what he had the right to operate on me in anyway for the next 6 months if I was brought into the hospital) and I dont even remember letting go of the pen after signing before I was fast asleep.

To be fair, she wouldn't hold still for the x-rays, so all he had to go by was this:

MythDragon: uncleacid: Did he not notice there was no hip replacement in the operating room.

That's probably when they realised the mistake. He asks the nurse "Where's the replacement hip joint" and she says "We're not replacing a hip joint, why do you need one" and the doctor says "uh-oh."

That's where the problem is, DNRTFA, but if an orthopedic surgeon was doing the procedure, there's the issue.

It's like taking your car to a muffler shop to get the brakes fixed. They're gonna want to start by hacking off the muffler as soon as they are under the car. Except a mechanic would check to see if the replacement part was in stock.

Crackers Are a Family Food: timujin: I don't get how this happens... I have never had surgery where I didn't talk to the doctor who would be operating on me beforehand.

Seriously. I've had a lot of surgeries, and every time, the physician and his staff go over what they're doing and mark me prior to putting me to sleep. If I went into surgery and a doctor didn't do that, I'd leave and go the fark home. Like you said, this isn't screwing up your burger order. You have to live with surgeons' errors forever.

Damn right they do.

I'm an MD. The practice at my hospital is reasonably simple.

1. Find patient, confirm patient is correct with 2 identifiers. Ask name and birthdate, if they don't match the bracelet, you have the wrong guy.
2. Talk to patient. Verify exactly what is being done. Mark sites with permanent skin marker, initials. Many have the patient initial, as well.
3. Take patient to OR. Verify again, immediately prior to going to OR.
4. Perform time out with full surgical team after patient knocked out. Announce name, birthdate, record number, and procedure to be done. If there is any discord at all, find out why.

That should make these errors impossible. I wonder what they didn't do.

Sword and Shield: Crackers Are a Family Food: timujin: I don't get how this happens... I have never had surgery where I didn't talk to the doctor who would be operating on me beforehand.

Seriously. I've had a lot of surgeries, and every time, the physician and his staff go over what they're doing and mark me prior to putting me to sleep. If I went into surgery and a doctor didn't do that, I'd leave and go the fark home. Like you said, this isn't screwing up your burger order. You have to live with surgeons' errors forever.

Damn right they do.

I'm an MD. The practice at my hospital is reasonably simple.

1. Find patient, confirm patient is correct with 2 identifiers. Ask name and birthdate, if they don't match the bracelet, you have the wrong guy.
2. Talk to patient. Verify exactly what is being done. Mark sites with permanent skin marker, initials. Many have the patient initial, as well.
3. Take patient to OR. Verify again, immediately prior to going to OR.
4. Perform time out with full surgical team after patient knocked out. Announce name, birthdate, record number, and procedure to be done. If there is any discord at all, find out why.

That should make these errors impossible. I wonder what they didn't do.

Humans are involved, and the sterile field covers up everything else. If there's graffiti anywhere else, it's covered up in those lovely blue or green sheets.

After reading that whole article I have just 2 words:

Government run health care?

When I had a colonoscopy, I just told them I didn't want the video to end up
on Facebook or youtube LOL.

Sword and Shield: That should make these errors impossible. I wonder what they didn't do.

The same thing people usually don't do in these situations: actually follow the procedure. There are a whole slew of ways to keep stuff like this from happening, but none of them work if you don't require people to always and exactly follow the procedure. To many people such strict adherence to procedure seem dumb because the vast majority of the time everything is fine without the procedure -- but those people have never lost their hip to a surgeon who failed to follow the procedure or the other staff that failed to call him on it.

I use a checklist to do software releases, and my worst-case scenario is a customer's web services go down for 20 minutes. I cannot imagine why there's so much resistance to enforcement of procedural safeguards in circumstances that literally threaten life and limb.

Sword and Shield: Crackers Are a Family Food: timujin: I don't get how this happens... I have never had surgery where I didn't talk to the doctor who would be operating on me beforehand.

Seriously. I've had a lot of surgeries, and every time, the physician and his staff go over what they're doing and mark me prior to putting me to sleep. If I went into surgery and a doctor didn't do that, I'd leave and go the fark home. Like you said, this isn't screwing up your burger order. You have to live with surgeons' errors forever.

Damn right they do.

I'm an MD. The practice at my hospital is reasonably simple.

1. Find patient, confirm patient is correct with 2 identifiers. Ask name and birthdate, if they don't match the bracelet, you have the wrong guy.
2. Talk to patient. Verify exactly what is being done. Mark sites with permanent skin marker, initials. Many have the patient initial, as well.
3. Take patient to OR. Verify again, immediately prior to going to OR.
4. Perform time out with full surgical team after patient knocked out. Announce name, birthdate, record number, and procedure to be done. If there is any discord at all, find out why.

That should make these errors impossible. I wonder what they didn't do.

Breakdowns in multiple safety systems. This kind of mistake happens (occasionally) everywhere from Mt. St Elsewhere to Mass Gen

Hopefully you can access at least the abstract of this article

Sword and Shield:

That should make these errors impossible. I wonder what they didn't do.

You are forgetting that a certain amount of doctors have such gigantic egos that they believe they are infallible and know exactly what they are doing.

I'm not saying that all doctors are like that. Because some of the most arrogant, egotistical doctors are also the most skilled and DO. NOT. FARK. AROUND.

But if you have an arrogant doctor with bad skills....

I bet that week's M&M conference was a hoot.

See, this is why I want a tattoo of the Grey's anatomy artwork of the spine, full size on my back. Not only would it be cool, but if my back ever gets worked on, it's right there.

Good for spinal taps too. I've had a doctor fark around back there and be unable to get a tap at all, much less a champagne tap. Had to wait for an anesthesiologist to come in and do it. He got it first try. The numbskull in the ER who tried messed around in there for 15 minutes before stopping when I threatened to break him.

/I was in for a migraine
//he was chasing zebras because someone 50 miles from me had contracted mosquito bourne encephalitis

PainfulItching: See, this is why I want a tattoo of the Grey's anatomy artwork of the spine, full size on my back. Not only would it be cool, but if my back ever gets worked on, it's right there.

trust me, you'd rather them trust the fluoro if you ever need surgery

beaverfetus: PainfulItching: See, this is why I want a tattoo of the Grey's anatomy artwork of the spine, full size on my back. Not only would it be cool, but if my back ever gets worked on, it's right there.

trust me, you'd rather them trust the fluoro if you ever need surgery

Understood, but it at least gives them a starting place. If I could get ahold of one of my MRI's, It'd be even better. But then I have to find an artist who can detail that, with my particular geography.

Dyanx: From reading the article's comments I gather that the woman can't sue for damages? That's crazy. She's stuck with whatever the hospital government decides to give her for their error?

The biggest concern I have with the idea of single-payer is that you lose having the government as a dispassionate third party adjudicating disputes.

/anywho, this shiat will always happen regardless of for-profit, non-profit, or government-run.

meanmutton: Dyanx: From reading the article's comments I gather that the woman can't sue for damages? That's crazy. She's stuck with whatever the hospital government decides to give her for their error?

The biggest concern I have with the idea of single-payer is that you lose having the government as a dispassionate third party adjudicating disputes.

/anywho, this shiat will always happen regardless of for-profit, non-profit, or government-run.



You can choose where you want to have your surgery in Sweden. The center-right coalition that runs the country has pretty much gutted the old system. And things have not gotten better. One of the biggest caregivers "Carema" is owned by venture capitalists in the USA.

FTA: "An experienced surgeon in Gävle in eastern Sweden mistakenly removed the entire hip joint of a healthy 30-year-old woman"

From the article Louise, 34, loses breast 'by mistake': "When Louise, 34, from Gävle, in central Sweden found a lump in her breast... they had removed her breast for no medical reason."

First, obvious social healthcare joke. Second, does Sweden have that many hot women that they need to maim a few of the healthy ones in order to keep the population in check? Third, Gävle is in many places at once.

ykarie: MythDragon: uncleacid: Did he not notice there was no hip replacement in the operating room.

That's probably when they realised the mistake. He asks the nurse "Where's the replacement hip joint" and she says "We're not replacing a hip joint, why do you need one" and the doctor says "uh-oh."

If only. At least a few of the nurses had to see that he was sawing off the whole hip bone instead of just filing off a bone growth. The anesthesiologist should have noticed that the procedure was taking much longer than expected. Everyone in the room should have noticed that things weren't going according to plan after the first hour or so.

/fire them all
//with real fire



In Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers," he discusses what a dismal crash record Asian (particularly Korean if I recall correctly) airlines used to have... and upon investigation, it was determined that much of it was due to cultural deference.

Pilots wouldn't speak up to question Air Traffic controllers guidance, even when if an aircraft was in an emergency situation and needed to land IMMEDIATELY, and having been told to stay aloft and circle in the pattern for a while. And co-pilots wouldn't speak up to question pilots (as superiors) when they were making horribly unsafe choices.

I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see the same environment in an OR... that all staff just have it so drilled into their heads that the doctor knows best and is never to be questioned or disturbed in the midst of a procedure.

If someone did voice concerns about something during a procedure, and their concerns turned out to be unfounded... (like saying "aren't we just supposed to be removing a growth, not the hip itself?") I bet you they'd have their ass handed to them for calling a doctor's judgment into question.

RobotSpider: fta:
But instead of just removing the growth, the surgeon allegedly chiseled away the entire hip joint, and put it on the operating table before the mistake was discovered.

You know that sinking feeling when you realize you hit D9 instead of D8 on the vending machine and get Doritos instead of Sun Chips? It's like that TIMES A BILLION BILLION.

Why would you rather have Sun Chips instead of Doritos? Sun Chips taste like ass. If you're going to each junk food, at least eat something tasty!

the surgeon is devastated with the mistake, which was explained as a "misjudgement regarding the woman's anatomy"

Mynd you, a womän's anatomi Kan be pretty nasti.

meanmutton: Dyanx: From reading the article's comments I gather that the woman can't sue for damages? That's crazy. She's stuck with whatever the hospital government decides to give her for their error?

The biggest concern I have with the idea of single-payer is that you lose having the government as a dispassionate third party adjudicating disputes.

/anywho, this shiat will always happen regardless of for-profit, non-profit, or government-run.

I don't know. Multiple people had to be pretty lackadaisical for this to happen. That sounds like government-grade lackadaisiality to me. Don't think the private sector has what it takes to match that.

cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

Do NOT do this.
Standard practice is to sign the hip we are working on.
Do you really want them to look at the marker, see it was signed by Dr. Otherhip, and think it's the one to operate on? Writing on the wrong hip will increase your chances of a wrong-site surgery.

Big_Fat_Liar: meanmutton: Dyanx: From reading the article's comments I gather that the woman can't sue for damages? That's crazy. She's stuck with whatever the hospital government decides to give her for their error?

The biggest concern I have with the idea of single-payer is that you lose having the government as a dispassionate third party adjudicating disputes.

/anywho, this shiat will always happen regardless of for-profit, non-profit, or government-run.

I don't know. Multiple people had to be pretty lackadaisical for this to happen. That sounds like government-grade lackadaisiality to me. Don't think the private sector has what it takes to match that.

Oh yeah, here in the grand ol' U. S. of cApitalism, nobody every saws off the wrong limb or leaves a surgical instrument in someone's abdominal cavity, or gives one guy a vasectomy and another guy an appendectomy when it was supposed to be the other way around.

DerAppie: This could have been prevented by a simple checklist. Just have one of the nurses work his/her way through it and have one of the items be "The goal of this surgery is X (remove a growth from the hip in this case), read this aloud to the surgeon."

Atul Gawande has pointed that out:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Checklist-Ma nifesto-Things-Right/dp/03124300 00/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339 800978&sr=1-1&keywords=checklist +manifesto

My CSB: The surgeons from Mayo were cutting on me for the Nth time as part of my botched spinal fusion. Right after they wheeled me into the OR, they attached a large pad to my right thigh. I inquired as to the purpose of said pad and the surgeon replied that it was to help "cauterize the smaller blood vessels in the stump." When they're all wearing masks and you're already doped up, it's hard to tell that they're smiling about the joke....

Riffington: cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

Do NOT do this.
Standard practice is to sign the hip we are working on.
Do you really want them to look at the marker, see it was signed by Dr. Otherhip, and think it's the one to operate on? Writing on the wrong hip will increase your chances of a wrong-site surgery.

When she had the other one five years ago, they didn't sign it. all they did was cut it (and replace it).

cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

you're supposed to say that with a smug expression... like "yeah, that's right... my wife needs her hips replaced. you know why. I also need to replace my box springs every 3 months."

technicolor-misfit: ykarie: MythDragon: uncleacid: Did he not notice there was no hip replacement in the operating room.

That's probably when they realised the mistake. He asks the nurse "Where's the replacement hip joint" and she says "We're not replacing a hip joint, why do you need one" and the doctor says "uh-oh."

If only. At least a few of the nurses had to see that he was sawing off the whole hip bone instead of just filing off a bone growth. The anesthesiologist should have noticed that the procedure was taking much longer than expected. Everyone in the room should have noticed that things weren't going according to plan after the first hour or so.

/fire them all
//with real fire



In Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers," he discusses what a dismal crash record Asian (particularly Korean if I recall correctly) airlines used to have... and upon investigation, it was determined that much of it was due to cultural deference.

Pilots wouldn't speak up to question Air Traffic controllers guidance, even when if an aircraft was in an emergency situation and needed to land IMMEDIATELY, and having been told to stay aloft and circle in the pattern for a while. And co-pilots wouldn't speak up to question pilots (as superiors) when they were making horribly unsafe choices.

I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see the same environment in an OR... that all staff just have it so drilled into their heads that the doctor knows best and is never to be questioned or disturbed in the midst of a procedure.

If someone did voice concerns about something during a procedure, and their concerns turned out to be unfounded... (like saying "aren't we just supposed to be removing a growth, not the hip itself?") I bet you they'd have their ass handed to them for calling a doctor's judgment into question.

This attitude is a lot of it, and it's not just in medicine. It's an everyday thing, a fear of possible confrontation. It was easy to observe on campus - a covered bridge connecting two buildings with a set of double doors at either end. One side would perpetually have some whale of a black chick blocking one of them, and not a single person will tell her to move. They just only use the other door, and will even wait for others to pass rather than ask her to move, and this is because there's too much fear she's going to chimp out.

reillan: cmunic8r99: My wife had hip replacement surgery a few years ago, and I wrote "OTHER HIP" in giant letters with an indelible marker on the side that wasn't getting work.

She's having the other one done soon, and I'll be doing the same thing this time - on the "good hip", of course.

/no, she's not that old
//get off her lawn anyway

you're supposed to say that with a smug expression... like "yeah, that's right... my wife needs her hips replaced. you know why. I also need to replace my box springs every 3 months."

Oh, I remind her frequently of the "real reason" she needs them replaced. She is well aware that I think she's needed them replaced because "I broke that shiat.*"

* not intended to be a factual statement.

the surgeon is devastated with the mistake, which was explained as a "misjudgement regarding the woman's anatomy"

Someone sounds like a virgin!

Circular incision was read as circumcision.