Technoir:

From personal experience/observation, I've seen far fewer cruiser riders acting like idiots on the road, than young kids on sport bikes. I've never seen a fat dude on a big ole Harley trying to squeeze between lanes of congested traffic on the highway... I've never seen a guy on a Goldwing going 200+ KPH....

Ever been to any of the no helmet states? All cruiser riders in no gear and no helmet. A different kind of idiocy but idiocy nevertheless.

Now, what I want to know is, as someone who gets fully geared up (helmet, jacket with armor, pants with armor, gloves, boots) even if I'm just going out for a 30-40mph jaunt through the twisties, why don't cyclists, who hit the same speeds with NO gear, have these kinds of problems?

amindtat: Look at the engine and exhaust of Treebike. It's a v-twin. The Ninja 650 is a parallel twin. Now look at Treebike's rear pulley. It's on the right side, like a Buell. The Ninja 650's rear sproket is on the left side.

Ok, so they were stupid twice.

I am Jack's complete lack of sympathy for people who get hurt in motorcycle crashes.

Even if it isnt their fault, it still is.

the_vicious_fez: Technoir:

From personal experience/observation, I've seen far fewer cruiser riders acting like idiots on the road, than young kids on sport bikes. I've never seen a fat dude on a big ole Harley trying to squeeze between lanes of congested traffic on the highway... I've never seen a guy on a Goldwing going 200+ KPH....

Ever been to any of the no helmet states? All cruiser riders in no gear and no helmet. A different kind of idiocy but idiocy nevertheless.


I live in a no helmet state and it varies. I'll admit I see more sport bike riders with helmets, but they're also the ones wearing shorts and tennis shoes (at least around here).

Cruiser riders around here are usually at least wearing jeans, boots, and often gloves, but often no helmets. The last few years I have been noticing more cruisers using helmets though.

/cruiser, usually wear boots, jeans, gloves and helmet, but I'll admit I often go without the jacket during the hottest parts of summer.

PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Yamaha V-Star 250 is a great starter bike, great looking small cruiser too. I got one two years ago and love it...can't beat the average 85mpg I get either!

slave2grind: I am Jack's complete lack of sympathy for people who get hurt in motorcycle crashes.

Even if it isnt their fault, it still is.

Yes. Clearly, everyone who gets on the motorway in any vehicle of any kind is throwing their life away.

PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

I adored my ninja 250. It's basically the Honda Civic of motorcycles. Small, light, cheap, ultra reliable (assuming you don't get something that has been crashed a few times), easy to repair, and loads of fun.

the_vicious_fez: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

I adored my ninja 250. It's basically the Honda Civic of motorcycles. Small, light, cheap, ultra reliable (assuming you don't get something that has been crashed a few times), easy to repair, and loads of fun.

Oh, and the riding position on the Ninjas (the sane ones, not the ZX's) is actually quite pleasant.

Kuroshin: /ATGATT
//and keep the triple-digits on the track

How dare you bring your message of rider responsibility into a thread where most people assume that all motorcyclists are idiots.

I ride a queen b*tch jezebel streefighter (Speed Triple 1050, ftw), but I think I speed less than the average Camry driver. And I'm definitely a lot safer than your typical Harley rider (ATGATT). I really wish we could get just one article titled, "Area Man Demonstrates Training, Foresight, and, Responsibility While Piloting Motorcycle This Morning."

One guilty pleasure, though, is acceleration. Speed limit is 70? Fine, but I'm gonna get there in the most sphincter-clenching 4-ish seconds outside of being shot from a cannon. No laws broken and no harm done save for the temporary blast in sound. And from there I just flow with the traffic.

PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Look into a used "sport tourer" type of bike. Do the ebay/craigslist thing. Go to many, many dealers and sit on just about everything. Drive them if the dealer will let you.
Don't pay more than the loan value for the bike.
Now I am going to put my gear on and go for a ride.

the_vicious_fez: Ever been to any of the no helmet states? All cruiser riders in no gear and no helmet. A different kind of idiocy but idiocy nevertheless.

Seems about 50/50 from what I see.

the_vicious_fez: Now, what I want to know is, as someone who gets fully geared up (helmet, jacket with armor, pants with armor, gloves, boots) even if I'm just going out for a 30-40mph jaunt through the twisties, why don't cyclists, who hit the same speeds with NO gear, have these kinds of problems?

Bicyclists you mean? Those guys seem like they're getting the worst of all possible worlds. Minimal safety gear, poor speed (plenty fast enough to kill you though) and acceleration relative to motorized traffic, and some of them are far worse about obeying traffic laws than even the worst squids.

JesseL: the_vicious_fez: Ever been to any of the no helmet states? All cruiser riders in no gear and no helmet. A different kind of idiocy but idiocy nevertheless.

Seems about 50/50 from what I see.

I think it's probably 50/50 overall, but there seem to be pockets of dominance one way or the other. In the bay area, it's all sport bikers, fully geared up, going obscene speeds down 84. farkers.

In South Carolina, it's too damn hot for leathers, so the cruiser guys and their gals tend to be more prevalent.


the_vicious_fez: Now, what I want to know is, as someone who gets fully geared up (helmet, jacket with armor, pants with armor, gloves, boots) even if I'm just going out for a 30-40mph jaunt through the twisties, why don't cyclists, who hit the same speeds with NO gear, have these kinds of problems?

Bicyclists you mean? Those guys seem like they're getting the worst of all possible worlds. Minimal safety gear, poor speed (plenty fast enough to kill you though) and acceleration relative to motorized traffic, and some of them are far worse about obeying traffic laws than even the worst squids.

I dated a serious recreational cyclist for a while, and he used to show up and my place on his bicycle ...without a helmet. There was yelling. Riot acts were read. I never understood it.

PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

If you are a complete novice to riding or less athletic and coordinated than you might like, get a 250 and ride it around town for a year. They are cheap on the used market, but still hold their value well because beginner bikes are always in demand. Rebel 250 or Ninja 250 are good options.

If you are a little more confident in your abilities, there a ton of great entry level options. Suzuki SV650, Kawa Ninja 650r, Yamaha FZ6r if you like sporty bikes. Suzuki's M50 and C50 are very handsome cruisers with decent power and lighter weight .

My first was a Suzuki GS500, and while it was a good bike, it was just a little too fast for total noobs, and just slow enough that as soon as I got confident, I wanted a bigger one.

Technoir: Now, I know lots of motorcyclists who are safe, responsible riders. I'm getting my M-Class license this summer. Already shopping for a good used cruiser/hog.

From personal experience/observation, I've seen far fewer cruiser riders acting like idiots on the road, than young kids on sport bikes. I've never seen a fat dude on a big ole Harley trying to squeeze between lanes of congested traffic on the highway... I've never seen a guy on a Goldwing going 200+ KPH...

Just sayin' that the sport bike appeals to a particular personality type: people who like to drive fast and get the adrenalin rush that comes with knowing that a small mistake in judgement could kill them.

Like cruisers, sport riders have their own highly-visible brand of douchebag. We don't like them any more than you do, and derisively refer to them as "squids."

However, as a group I find non-cruiser riders to be an overall more educated lot. Especially Harley people. Most Harley folk believe form follows function, while the opposite is the case of that guy on a Ducati who just lane-split on his way to work. In short, the guy on the Ducati probably knows more about how his machine handles, exit strategies, maintenance, gear, etc. It's a troll-tastic comment to make, but I've spent nearly 20 years of daily riding interacting with riders of all stripes, and that's the impression that's almost constantly confirmed by daily anecdotes.

Maybe the fat accountant weekend-warrior on the Harley is putting along at only 35mph, but he's also leaving a Hooters happy hour and not wearing a helmet. To me that is infinitely more irresponsible than what I typically see douchebags do at 90 mph. And then that same helmet-less assflower has the nerve to explain to me that "loud pipes save lives." Since when were any of you concerned about safety? Oh right...when it gives you an excuse to be a loud attention whore.

the_vicious_fez: In South Carolina, it's too damn hot for leathers, so the cruiser guys and their gals tend to be more prevalent.

People need to try out the newer mesh gear. Good protection and all the airflow of being naked :)

I find it's actually a bit cooler sometimes to wear a mesh jacket than to go without because it keeps the sun off (and my skin reacts to sunlight like ISO4000 film).

eh, I meant "function follows form." What good is trolling a bike thread without proofreading? :)

kqc7011: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Look into a used "sport tourer" type of bike.

If he's a shorter guy, he may have trouble with those. The seat heights seem to be really high. I ride a Moto Guzzi Breva 1100 and at 6'1", if I were a couple inches shorter, I wouldn't be able to flat foot it.

JesseL: People need to try out the newer mesh gear. Good protection and all the airflow of being naked :)

I commute shirtless with an armored mesh jacket. The shirt stays folded in a tank bag, crisp and ready for work. Very little sweat and even then only at long lights. At any sort of speed it really feels like I'm wearing nothing at all. This coupled with very short hair (no probs being wet and matted when I arrive) and the problem of commuting safely in the South, in July, is solved.

dickfreckle: JesseL: People need to try out the newer mesh gear. Good protection and all the airflow of being naked :)

I commute shirtless with an armored mesh jacket. The shirt stays folded in a tank bag, crisp and ready for work. Very little sweat and even then only at long lights. At any sort of speed it really feels like I'm wearing nothing at all. This coupled with very short hair (no probs being wet and matted when I arrive) and the problem of commuting safely in the South, in July, is solved.

I am intrigued and I'll check out the mesh stuff. I've always been concerned about its ability to take slides.

/no shirtless commuting for me.

Cuyose: Suzuki SV650

I've been keeping my eye out for one of those, they look great naked. I think the popularity of those bikes keeps the price high, though. I have broadened my search to include older GS500s and a few others. A friend let me borrow his Hyosung GT250 for a few weeks, and I liked it more than I expected to. The build quality is a lot better than it was a few years ago.

dickfreckle: I ride a queen b*tch jezebel streefighter

Ever check out the customfighters site? I fell in love with a bike there a while back.

the_vicious_fez: I am intrigued and I'll check out the mesh stuff. I've always been concerned about its ability to take slides.

From everything I've seen, quality mesh gear takes abrasion better than leather.

I finally gave up my old First Gear leather jacket earlier this year and even though is was well vented it was miserable compared to the AGV jacket I replaced it with. It was also a lot less expensive and I got a major upgrade in protection since the old jacket didn't have the armor pads the new one does.

Magnanimous_J: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

If you are a complete novice to riding or less athletic and coordinated than you might like, get a 250 and ride it around town for a year. They are cheap on the used market, but still hold their value well because beginner bikes are always in demand. Rebel 250 or Ninja 250 are good options.

If you are a little more confident in your abilities, there a ton of great entry level options. Suzuki SV650, Kawa Ninja 650r, Yamaha FZ6r if you like sporty bikes. Suzuki's M50 and C50 are very handsome cruisers with decent power and lighter weight .

My first was a Suzuki GS500, and while it was a good bike, it was just a little too fast for total noobs, and just slow enough that as soon as I got confident, I wanted a bigger one.

I second the gs500 as a beginner bike. It's what I'm currently riding. Enough power to have some fun, not so much that you'll get in much trouble. keep it under 6k rpm and she's very tame.

bought a brand new 2009 gs500f in early 2011 for just under $3k us.

The Buell XB series are actually really fun bikes. There's just something about them that will put a smile on your face. Of course, that something is definitely not dealing with Harley dealerships. That said, you can pick a non-tree-hanging one up for dirt cheap used.

PsyLord: rickycal78: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Street (crotch rocket style) or cruiser (more traditional style)?

Either. I saw a Harley V-Rod at a showroom once and raised my tiny fists at my genes for not making me a taller/bigger person.

Harley seat heights are generally pretty low. So, you can't pick it back up easily. Real simple. Don't drop it. Also, there are techniques that will enable even fairly small people to lift bikes as big as a Honda Goldwing. I just can't explain them very well, because, being one of the big people, I don't use them.

the_vicious_fez: JesseL: the_vicious_fez: Ever been to any of the no helmet states? All cruiser riders in no gear and no helmet. A different kind of idiocy but idiocy nevertheless.

Seems about 50/50 from what I see.

I think it's probably 50/50 overall, but there seem to be pockets of dominance one way or the other. In the bay area, it's all sport bikers, fully geared up, going obscene speeds down 84. farkers.

In South Carolina, it's too damn hot for leathers, so the cruiser guys and their gals tend to be more prevalent.


the_vicious_fez: Now, what I want to know is, as someone who gets fully geared up (helmet, jacket with armor, pants with armor, gloves, boots) even if I'm just going out for a 30-40mph jaunt through the twisties, why don't cyclists, who hit the same speeds with NO gear, have these kinds of problems?

Bicyclists you mean? Those guys seem like they're getting the worst of all possible worlds. Minimal safety gear, poor speed (plenty fast enough to kill you though) and acceleration relative to motorized traffic, and some of them are far worse about obeying traffic laws than even the worst squids.

I dated a serious recreational cyclist for a while, and he used to show up and my place on his bicycle ...without a helmet. There was yelling. Riot acts were read. I never understood it.

Does not compute.

Wrecked my 50cc scooter and sprained four fingers, so I'm getting a kick ...

/ did wear full set of leathers, including gloves. Even if it looks silly on a stupid scooter.

the_vicious_fez: Technoir:

From personal experience/observation, I've seen far fewer cruiser riders acting like idiots on the road, than young kids on sport bikes. I've never seen a fat dude on a big ole Harley trying to squeeze between lanes of congested traffic on the highway... I've never seen a guy on a Goldwing going 200+ KPH....

Ever been to any of the no helmet states? All cruiser riders in no gear and no helmet. A different kind of idiocy but idiocy nevertheless.

Now, what I want to know is, as someone who gets fully geared up (helmet, jacket with armor, pants with armor, gloves, boots) even if I'm just going out for a 30-40mph jaunt through the twisties, why don't cyclists, who hit the same speeds with NO gear, have these kinds of problems?

As a racing cyclist I can say we DO have those problems. I've seen some pretty horrific crashes at bike races before. 50, sometimes 100 cyclists riding inches off each other's wheels in large packs. Crashes can be very, very nasty. Horrific road rash. Fractured wrists, collar bones are very common.

OTOH, except in races and fast rides, you don't spend a lot of time over 30 mph even on a road bike except going down hill.

If you are shopping for used bikes, how do you tell if they've been trashed? Is there a motorcycle carfax equivalent?

dickfreckle: Kuroshin: /ATGATT
//and keep the triple-digits on the track

How dare you bring your message of rider responsibility into a thread where most people assume that all motorcyclists are idiots.

I ride a queen b*tch jezebel streefighter (Speed Triple 1050, ftw), but I think I speed less than the average Camry driver. And I'm definitely a lot safer than your typical Harley rider (ATGATT). I really wish we could get just one article titled, "Area Man Demonstrates Training, Foresight, and, Responsibility While Piloting Motorcycle This Morning."

One guilty pleasure, though, is acceleration. Speed limit is 70? Fine, but I'm gonna get there in the most sphincter-clenching 4-ish seconds outside of being shot from a cannon. No laws broken and no harm done save for the temporary blast in sound. And from there I just flow with the traffic.


I get flamed on the community boards any time I bring up responsible riding. There's a major rift between those of us who keep things safe on the street, only going nuts on the track, and those douchebags who treat public roads like their own personal race track.

I'll occasionally blast up to full speed from a standing start as well. Not highly exciting on my R6 though, since I don't even hit the top of first gear. Something a bit more torque-y with shorter gears would be tons more fun on the street. I'm hoping to get a Duc S2R1000 down the road, saving the R6 for the track and sunny weekends.


Magnanimous_J: kqc7011: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Look into a used "sport tourer" type of bike.

If he's a shorter guy, he may have trouble with those. The seat heights seem to be really high. I ride a Moto Guzzi Breva 1100 and at 6'1", if I were a couple inches shorter, I wouldn't be able to flat foot it.

Neighbor of mine rides a 'Strada 1100 and he's 5'8". Saddle height is something like 33"! Looks goofy as hell, but he loves it (other than the dry clutch rattle, anyway).

Carn: If you are shopping for used bikes, how do you tell if they've been trashed? Is there a motorcycle carfax equivalent?

Make sure they don't look like the one in the article. Dead give away.

Carn: If you are shopping for used bikes, how do you tell if they've been trashed? Is there a motorcycle carfax equivalent?

Check for signs of rash on the frame and any bits that poke out (engine covers, swingarm, bent triple, leaking forks, etc.).

But buying a used bike can be a chore if you aren't familiar with what to look for. I'd suggest finding somebody who is, and dragging them along in exchange for a six pack and some pizza.

Kuroshin: Carn: If you are shopping for used bikes, how do you tell if they've been trashed? Is there a motorcycle carfax equivalent?

Check for signs of rash on the frame and any bits that poke out (engine covers, swingarm, bent triple, leaking forks, etc.).

But buying a used bike can be a chore if you aren't familiar with what to look for. I'd suggest finding somebody who is, and dragging them along in exchange for a six pack and some pizza.

Ask for maintenance records. Also, many shops will let you take a bike in to have it assessed before you buy it. Maybe you can convince the buyer to do it for you. They'll give you an idea of what sort of condition the bike is in and what sort of repairs it will probably need down the line.

forgotmydamnusername: PsyLord: rickycal78: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Street (crotch rocket style) or cruiser (more traditional style)?

Either. I saw a Harley V-Rod at a showroom once and raised my tiny fists at my genes for not making me a taller/bigger person.

Harley seat heights are generally pretty low. So, you can't pick it back up easily. Real simple. Don't drop it. Also, there are techniques that will enable even fairly small people to lift bikes as big as a Honda Goldwing. I just can't explain them very well, because, being one of the big people, I don't use them.

PS. Harleys are terrible as first bikes. Don't go buy a VRSwhatever just yet, even if it's more manageable than you think, physically.

the_vicious_fez: Kuroshin: Carn: If you are shopping for used bikes, how do you tell if they've been trashed? Is there a motorcycle carfax equivalent?

Check for signs of rash on the frame and any bits that poke out (engine covers, swingarm, bent triple, leaking forks, etc.).

But buying a used bike can be a chore if you aren't familiar with what to look for. I'd suggest finding somebody who is, and dragging them along in exchange for a six pack and some pizza.

Ask for maintenance records. Also, many shops will let you take a bike in to have it assessed before you buy it. Maybe you can convince the buyer to do it for you. They'll give you an idea of what sort of condition the bike is in and what sort of repairs it will probably need down the line.

There's something out there called Cyclechex.com that's supposed to be like a carfax for bikes, but I wouldn't trust it as of yet. The only reason carfax can be used the way it is is because most garages/body shops/police depts/ etc report stuff to carfax. I know I obviously haven't been to every bike shop around, but I don't know of any bike places that send stuff to Cyclechex when they do repairs and whatnot.

Best off doing what the poster I quoted said and bring a knowledgable friend.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/vVrtYmJTd SA?rel=0 (74.125.227.98)

I can't find a pic, but there has been a bike hanging in a tree for a long time at the Swing Bridge Saloon in South Carolina.

Nice biker bar.

rickycal78: PsyLord: rickycal78: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Street (crotch rocket style) or cruiser (more traditional style)?

Either. I saw a Harley V-Rod at a showroom once and raised my tiny fists at my genes for not making me a taller/bigger person.

Harley's have low versions of a number of their cycles, but I wouldn't consider any of theirs starter bikes. Well maybe a Sportster, but the lowest engine size Harley sells is 883cc on Sportsters, which are more affordable, but stock ones are pretty ugly, and customizing them is expensive. Everything else is 1100CC or larger and not a good thing for someone to learn on. Don't get me wrong, I like Harley's personally, but they aren't a beginner bike.

The Honda Rebel bikes are a decent starter cruiser style bikes. And they're affordable.
/No longer ashamed to say I learned on a Honda 250 Rebel.

Somehow missed this. Having learned on a Sportster, I'm going to say no, not a Sportster, either. They're top heavy, and although the hp output may only be slightly higher than a Ninja 250, they make sufficient torque that things like hills and passengers don't noticeably slow them down. This can make things seem pretty abrupt and feel almost out of control at times when you let the clutch out, if you haven't much experience.

JesseL: the_vicious_fez: I am intrigued and I'll check out the mesh stuff. I've always been concerned about its ability to take slides.

From everything I've seen, quality mesh gear takes abrasion better than leather.

I finally gave up my old First Gear leather jacket earlier this year and even though is was well vented it was miserable compared to the AGV jacket I replaced it with. It was also a lot less expensive and I got a major upgrade in protection since the old jacket didn't have the armor pads the new one does.

AGV makes a jacket? Thank you! I've been trying to find a mesh jacket that I think Dainese made a few years ago. It was mesh with elbow & shoulder protection. And I think it was in Hi-Viz colors. I'll check out the AGV stuff.

forgotmydamnusername: rickycal78: PsyLord: rickycal78: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Street (crotch rocket style) or cruiser (more traditional style)?

Either. I saw a Harley V-Rod at a showroom once and raised my tiny fists at my genes for not making me a taller/bigger person.

Harley's have low versions of a number of their cycles, but I wouldn't consider any of theirs starter bikes. Well maybe a Sportster, but the lowest engine size Harley sells is 883cc on Sportsters, which are more affordable, but stock ones are pretty ugly, and customizing them is expensive. Everything else is 1100CC or larger and not a good thing for someone to learn on. Don't get me wrong, I like Harley's personally, but they aren't a beginner bike.

The Honda Rebel bikes are a decent starter cruiser style bikes. And they're affordable.
/No longer ashamed to say I learned on a Honda 250 Rebel.

Somehow missed this. Having learned on a Sportster, I'm going to say no, not a Sportster, either. They're top heavy, and although the hp output may only be slightly higher than a Ninja 250, they make sufficient torque that things like hills and passengers don't noticeably slow them down. This can make things seem pretty abrupt and feel almost out of control at times when you let the clutch out, if you haven't much experience.

Like I said in the post, Harley's in general aren't good learner bikes. I went to a Sportster right after a few weeks of the 250 Rebel I learned on, and I didn't notice the issue with hills that you mentioned at all, but I still wouldn't really consider it much of a learner bike.

Start small and work your way up.

Well, my first bike was a Buell S3, and I seemed to be okay with it.

I think the real danger is going from a bike that's relatively low torque to one that's relatively high torque. You have to be much more careful with the throttle on a high-torque bike, and so if you're more used to being able to just whack it open you're going to get yourself in trouble.

That said, yeah, Harleys are pretty heavy to be good beginner bikes in any circumstances.

And engine size doesn't matter that much. A sportsbike 600 probably makes more power than the latest gen of Harley 12s.

dickfreckle:
However, as a group I find non-cruiser riders to be an overall more educated lot. Especially Harley people. Most Harley folk believe form follows function, while the opposite is the case of that guy on a Ducati who just lane-split on his way to work. In short, the guy on the Ducati probably knows more about how his machine handles, exit strategies, maintenance, gear, etc. It's a troll-tastic comment to make, but I've spent nearly 20 years of daily riding interacting with riders of all stripes, and that's the impression that's almost constantly confirmed by daily anecdotes.

Well, if you hang out with sportbike riders, you'll probably get that impression due to observational biases. That said, RUBs are almost always pretty piss poor riders.

kyoryu: And engine size doesn't matter that much. A sportsbike 600 probably makes more power than the latest gen of Harley 12s.

I could be wrong since I don't know much about sport bikes, but that sports bike 600 would likely be a good deal lighter than a Harley 1200. Part of what makes a decent starter bike, at least IMO is that it's not going to be impossible to pick up if you dump it. Any Harley outside of an 883 Sportster is going to be pretty goddamned heavy for a beginner to be messing around with.

rickycal78: kyoryu: And engine size doesn't matter that much. A sportsbike 600 probably makes more power than the latest gen of Harley 12s.

I could be wrong since I don't know much about sport bikes, but that sports bike 600 would likely be a good deal lighter than a Harley 1200. Part of what makes a decent starter bike, at least IMO is that it's not going to be impossible to pick up if you dump it. Any Harley outside of an 883 Sportster is going to be pretty goddamned heavy for a beginner to be messing around with.

Forgot to add, and even that 883 Sportster is going to be a bit on the heavy side to pick up if you dump it.

Kuroshin: dickfreckle: Kuroshin: /ATGATT
//and keep the triple-digits on the track

How dare you bring your message of rider responsibility into a thread where most people assume that all motorcyclists are idiots.

I ride a queen b*tch jezebel streefighter (Speed Triple 1050, ftw), but I think I speed less than the average Camry driver. And I'm definitely a lot safer than your typical Harley rider (ATGATT). I really wish we could get just one article titled, "Area Man Demonstrates Training, Foresight, and, Responsibility While Piloting Motorcycle This Morning."

One guilty pleasure, though, is acceleration. Speed limit is 70? Fine, but I'm gonna get there in the most sphincter-clenching 4-ish seconds outside of being shot from a cannon. No laws broken and no harm done save for the temporary blast in sound. And from there I just flow with the traffic.


I get flamed on the community boards any time I bring up responsible riding. There's a major rift between those of us who keep things safe on the street, only going nuts on the track, and those douchebags who treat public roads like their own personal race track.

I'll occasionally blast up to full speed from a standing start as well. Not highly exciting on my R6 though, since I don't even hit the top of first gear. Something a bit more torque-y with shorter gears would be tons more fun on the street. I'm hoping to get a Duc S2R1000 down the road, saving the R6 for the track and sunny weekends.


Magnanimous_J: kqc7011: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Look into a used "sport tourer" type of bike.

If he's a shorter guy, he may have trouble with those. The seat heights seem to be really high. I ride a Moto Guzzi Breva 1100 and at 6'1", if I were a couple inches shorter, I wouldn't be able to flat foot it.

Neighbor of mine ...

I am 5'10" and can put both feet flat on the ground while sitting on my older Kawaski Concours. But when I tried a newer BMW RT it was nearly tippy toes time. But the BMW was not set at the lowest seat hight, it was about in the middle.

kyoryu: That said, RUBs are almost always pretty piss poor riders.

What's a RUB?

PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

I'd suggest a slightly used (2006 - 2009) cruiser type. Honda Shadow or Yamaha V-Star, 650cc engine. That was my choice after a long break from riding so that I could ease back into it and start with something low end that would last me for a couple of years or so until I knew for sure I wanted to do it.

It was worth doing, I just traded my V-Star for a BMW K1200GT, and I now have the confidence to control a much more powerful bike. Another suggestion is take a motorcycle safety course if there's one near you ... a couple of days riding someone else's bike will teach you a lot AND save you money if you decide it's not really your thing.

the_vicious_fez: kyoryu: That said, RUBs are almost always pretty piss poor riders.

What's a RUB?

Rich Urban Biker. Stereotypically, the guys who drive their BMW to the Harley store and drop 60K to become a 'biker'.

rickycal78: forgotmydamnusername: rickycal78: PsyLord: rickycal78: PsyLord: Speaking of which, I'm hitting my pre-mid-life crisis stage and have always wanted to get a bike. I'm looking for an affordable starter bike. Other info: it can't be huge/heavy (I'm not exactly a big dude). Any suggestions?

Street (crotch rocket style) or cruiser (more traditional style)?

Either. I saw a Harley V-Rod at a showroom once and raised my tiny fists at my genes for not making me a taller/bigger person.

Harley's have low versions of a number of their cycles, but I wouldn't consider any of theirs starter bikes. Well maybe a Sportster, but the lowest engine size Harley sells is 883cc on Sportsters, which are more affordable, but stock ones are pretty ugly, and customizing them is expensive. Everything else is 1100CC or larger and not a good thing for someone to learn on. Don't get me wrong, I like Harley's personally, but they aren't a beginner bike.

The Honda Rebel bikes are a decent starter cruiser style bikes. And they're affordable.
/No longer ashamed to say I learned on a Honda 250 Rebel.

Somehow missed this. Having learned on a Sportster, I'm going to say no, not a Sportster, either. They're top heavy, and although the hp output may only be slightly higher than a Ninja 250, they make sufficient torque that things like hills and passengers don't noticeably slow them down. This can make things seem pretty abrupt and feel almost out of control at times when you let the clutch out, if you haven't much experience.

Like I said in the post, Harley's in general aren't good learner bikes. I went to a Sportster right after a few weeks of the 250 Rebel I learned on, and I didn't notice the issue with hills that you mentioned at all, but I still wouldn't really consider it much of a learner bike.

Start small and work your way up.

There's no issue with hills. You zip right to the top without even giving it more gas. It's just that the torque that allows that to happen can also lead to an abrupt, head-snapping lurch forward, when say, leaving a parking space. I also remember breaking the rear wheel lose in turns a couple of times, by not being smooth with the application of throttle, barely managing not to drop the damn thing. It needed more muscling to get it in and out of turns than any bike I've subsequently ridden. Eventually, it seemed like fun, but the first few months kinda sucked.

JesseL: the_vicious_fez: kyoryu: That said, RUBs are almost always pretty piss poor riders.

What's a RUB?

Rich Urban Biker. Stereotypically, the guys who drive their BMW to the Harley store and drop 60K to become a 'biker'.

Can also be seen wearing "HOG" patches on the back of their shiny new jackets while getting in your farking way, or storking their bikes down the street in parades...

rickycal78: kyoryu: And engine size doesn't matter that much. A sportsbike 600 probably makes more power than the latest gen of Harley 12s.

I could be wrong since I don't know much about sport bikes, but that sports bike 600 would likely be a good deal lighter than a Harley 1200. Part of what makes a decent starter bike, at least IMO is that it's not going to be impossible to pick up if you dump it. Any Harley outside of an 883 Sportster is going to be pretty goddamned heavy for a beginner to be messing around with.

As far as weight, sure, but man, a 600 supersport is like the last bike that I'd ever recommend to a new rider. Too much power up high, with low enough torque that you "think" you're safe. Drastically different throttle response at different RPMs....

That's not a recommendation for a Sportster as a starting bike, so much as it is a recommendation for anything but a 600 supersport.