But are the ones not hiring the same as the ones going without pay? I would assume that there are lots of business owners that go without pay. Is 23% an unusual number? And I assume pay means salary, not bonuses, stock options and having the business pay for all kinds of living expenses.

MasterAdkins: But are the ones not hiring the same as the ones going without pay? I would assume that there are lots of business owners that go without pay. Is 23% an unusual number? And I assume pay means salary, not bonuses, stock options and having the business pay for all kinds of living expenses.

It's common for a small business owner to rely on savings or a spouse's wages while the business becomes established. I'm willing to believe 23% of those surveyed have not done anything other than pay business related expenses with revenue from their businesses, but it's a pretty shiatty article and there isn't enough informatiion for me to know whether or not to care.

Yeah, like the "small business owner" I did some freelance work for last year... He liked to brag he hadn't taken a paycheck in 5 years, yet he still drove around in a brand new Mercedes, had a 40' sail boat, owned a restored Victorian house and had four pure bred Laberdoodles (whatever the fark that is).

Not taking a paycheck from the business doesn't necessarily mean they aren't making money or that they're making any kind of a sacrifice in their lifestyle for the good of the company and its employees.

Having said that, the man always paid his bills on time and never nickle and dimed me over my fees.

As a small business owner, you'd be shocked (or not, if you knew anything about how we pay ourselves) to see the paltry size of my "paychecks." Yet, I somehow manage to pay my mortgage on time each month, send my kid to USC and take vacations now and then. How on earth do I pull that off?

I don't think these small business owners are the real target of the criticism and the ire.

My company is cash rich and had consistently beats projections every year for at least twelve years. And our CEO draws only a token salary - his wealth doesn't rely on it anymore. And we're not hiring.

23%? Where the hell did they get their sample, from chapter 11 filings?

Yes. SMALL business owners. Not gonna see that kind of self-sacrifice from the CEO of ExxonMobil or Goldman Sucks...

you know, steve jobs famously only took a dollar a year in salary. it's amazing he could afford to buy ramen, let alone a massive mansion in palo alto. o_0

FlashHarry: you know, steve jobs famously only took a dollar a year in salary. it's amazing he could afford to buy ramen, let alone a massive mansion in palo alto. o_0

My boss is Larry Ellison. Same deal. Which is why I read the headline and said, "Yeah, so?" Then I RTFA.

If small businesses are actually cash rich like us, what's the problem? I think the focus of this way off. These are not the evil business owners we're looking for.

Howie Spankowitz: As a small business owner, you'd be shocked (or not, if you knew anything about how we pay ourselves) to see the paltry size of my "paychecks." Yet, I somehow manage to pay my mortgage on time each month, send my kid to USC and take vacations now and then. How on earth do I pull that off?

Are you serious or trolling or being sarcastic? I can't tell.

They can do that because they're rich.

I didn't read TFA. Is this one of those things about owners who say they don't pay themselves but use the company card to pay for their homes and car and eat at expensive restaurants and golf every day?
/Super Strawman is uncited but fun to hate!

Yeah, the ones sitting on trillions of dollars in unused capital are small business owners, subby. You solved it, everybody complaining about it just "doesn't get it" or some other FYGM dumbass thing.

Um... then how do they afford rent/morgage, food, utilities, etc... ?

I'd love to be financiallly secure enough to go a farking year without pay and not end up homeless.

Um, yeah, it's not the business owners sitting on piles of wealth so much as business executives, and no, the guy who owns and operates the local pizza place doesn't count as a business executive.

Small businesses aren't the problem and never have been the problem Subby.

keylock71: Yeah, like the "small business owner" I did some freelance work for last year... He liked to brag he hadn't taken a paycheck in 5 years, yet he still drove around in a brand new Mercedes, had a 40' sail boat, owned a restored Victorian house and had four pure bred Laberdoodles (whatever the fark that is).


Sigh. Income isn't wealth.

Isnt it nice when someone can go a year without pay, without losing their business, home, or anything like that?

Must be nice.

/im actually a small business owner who is used to the concept of not getting paid for long stretches, your networth is still usually growing though. I just like being dramatic.

Employees, too, sacrificed finances for their employers. More than one-third of owners (38 percent) said their employees worked overtime without pay; 18 percent said employees either missed paychecks or had paychecks delayed.

Well, that just solves everything then, doesn't it? Just get the bastards to workout without pay and we'll have this whole economy mess fixed in no time. Now why does this seem familiar...

I'm sure none of this is true. Everybody knows that the "Rich" sit around all day plotting about how to take stuff from the "Poor" and then spend their leisure time laughing about how they're screwing Joe Average out of everything but the kitchen sink.

Everything the "Rich" have is stolen from people that don't have anything. It's the way the world works, nothing you can do about it.

Lando Lincoln: Howie Spankowitz: As a small business owner, you'd be shocked (or not, if you knew anything about how we pay ourselves) to see the paltry size of my "paychecks." Yet, I somehow manage to pay my mortgage on time each month, send my kid to USC and take vacations now and then. How on earth do I pull that off?

Are you serious or trolling or being sarcastic? I can't tell.

I take it as a wink wink nudge nudge. I think he is pointing out that with a little creative accounting you could not pay yourself a wage but still make money. So the claims of the 23% are basically bullshiat. That's what I took away from it anyway.

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Um... then how do they afford rent/morgage, food, utilities, etc... ?

I'd love to be financiallly secure enough to go a farking year without pay and not end up homeless.

I could do about 5. But that's because I'm a skinflint


// Or was that a skin flute. Always get those confused

I'm sure this thread will stay calm and rational.

Nana's Vibrator: I didn't read TFA. Is this one of those things about owners who say they don't pay themselves but use the company card to pay for their homes and car and eat at expensive restaurants and golf every day?
/Super Strawman is uncited but fun to hate!

Yep, it's one of those things. Paying personal expenses through their business is in no way taking a paycheck. Not at all. If you say otherwise your a socialist.

NkThrasher: Small businesses aren't the problem and never have been the problem Subby.

Right. It's only when they succeed and grow that they become evil -- that's why the government needs to step in and make sure they fail before they become evil. Or, you know, we'll become Somalia or something.

Howie Spankowitz: As a small business owner, you'd be shocked (or not, if you knew anything about how we pay ourselves) to see the paltry size of my "paychecks." Yet, I somehow manage to pay my mortgage on time each month, send my kid to USC and take vacations now and then. How on earth do I pull that off?

Tax Fraud.

FlashHarry: you know, steve jobs famously only took a dollar a year in salary. it's amazing he could afford to buy ramen, let alone a massive mansion in palo alto. o_0

I bet he got nice bonuses and stock dividends though

So, the results of a survey with no other information. Nope. Would not buy again.

The top 2000 businesses are sitting on a trillion dollars and financial firms and banks are sitting on another 3-4 trillion. Not sure that I've seen any arguments that joe the plumber is sitting on a mountain of cash with his plumbing business and not hiring. There are definitely a lot of small business owners, not those in the top 2000 businesses in the country, that are still having a hard time.

I would take any survey done by Citibank regarding corporate salaries and stock options with a truckload of salt.

Is this like when the multi-millionaire car execs were paid a dollar for a year and I'm supposed to worship their awesome rich amazingness?

xanadian: Yes. SMALL business owners. Not gonna see that kind of self-sacrifice from the CEO of ExxonMobil or Goldman Sucks...

We know our business owner is struggling, company of 25.

Carn: Is this like when the multi-millionaire car execs were paid a dollar for a year and I'm supposed to worship their awesome rich amazingness?

Multimillionaires making a dollar per year? Those dudes must be oooooolllldddd.

I have a lot of friends who have taken a paycheck holiday. I myself have taken pay cuts so I wouldn't have to lay people off and occasionally held my checks for a month or so. Honestly, though, I don't think I would go without pay for any extended length of time unless I was really running out the clock to retirement. Running a business is too damn hard and I could probably command just as much as I make now in the private sector with a whole lot less worries. That said, the reason i do it is that I still think my business has a lot of upside and I genuinely like the people and my clients. And when things are going as they should, I do just fine. I do work 60 hours most weeks though.

In other news, 23% of business owners are racist.

Howie Spankowitz: As a small business owner, you'd be shocked (or not, if you knew anything about how we pay ourselves) to see the paltry size of my "paychecks." Yet, I somehow manage to pay my mortgage on time each month, send my kid to USC and take vacations now and then. How on earth do I pull that off?



This.

Man that golden goose looks soooo tasty, huh?

Is anyone really upset that small businesses aren't hiring?

Yeah, nobody's blaming small business owners, subby.

Just because you don't deduct from the payroll on a regular basis doesn't mean you can't take $500 from the kitty when you want to buy some new golf clubs.

/thanks roomie!

Its a good week when I get paid. You would be surprised to see my pay compared to my employees. But at least the doors are still open and not bankrupt

Howie Spankowitz: As a small business owner, you'd be shocked (or not, if you knew anything about how we pay ourselves) to see the paltry size of my "paychecks." Yet, I somehow manage to pay my mortgage on time each month, send my kid to USC and take vacations now and then. How on earth do I pull that off?

You're one of the "evil" ones subby is talking about?

Keep farking that chicken. It's big business getting too big that are sucking all the profits and not trickling it down. Small businesses are getting hurt just as bad as the blue and white collar workers. So vote Republican and help big business create jobs by lowering taxes.

rumpelstiltskin: It's common for a small business owner to rely on savings or a spouse's wages while the business becomes established. I'm willing to believe 23% of those surveyed have not done anything other than pay business related expenses with revenue from their businesses, but it's a pretty shiatty article and there isn't enough informatiion for me to know whether or not to care.

I have a friend who owns a oil change place in Port Huron. He has gone a couple of years without any form of income, but manages on his wife's salary to survive. I asked will he continue if the profits stay down. He is sticking with it for two reasons: one his only employee (his son) would be out of a job and second it could pick up and be worth it. However his nephew who started a computer business chose not to keep at it when the computer repair business went rough. He sold his share to his partner and took a job with another computer repair company.

They are all still evil.

They are generally capitalists. They hope to make a lot of money as a result of their business. They do not work for the government, the most underpaid and overworked sector who according to the president himself, are the only ones feeling the pain of the economy as the private sector is doing fine.

/not a troll
//just a sarcastic sob.

rumpelstiltskin: MasterAdkins: But are the ones not hiring the same as the ones going without pay? I would assume that there are lots of business owners that go without pay. Is 23% an unusual number? And I assume pay means salary, not bonuses, stock options and having the business pay for all kinds of living expenses.

It's common for a small business owner to rely on savings or a spouse's wages while the business becomes established. I'm willing to believe 23% of those surveyed have not done anything other than pay business related expenses with revenue from their businesses, but it's a pretty shiatty article and there isn't enough informatiion for me to know whether or not to care.

You're not far off, in my case. I keep home finances separate from business, except for the
occasional loan (I believe mentioned downstream) from "the house" to "the company" when a
customer (also small) happens to fall outside of net-30 or whatever...usually it's clerical, but
business insurance folk don't wait for their premium - nor should they. Any "paycheck" I get
then goes first to pay off the "loan", then into capital/savings for future use.

Some nice things are looming on the horizon, but thank ${DEITY} I have my wife to back my
ass up in case they crater.

(Anecdotally, friends of mine doing the same-style thing do the same thing - just *don't* tightly
intermingle personal finance and corporate finance. Neither I nor my accountant look good in
orange.... That said, the downstream comment about the "pizza shop owner" not being an
executive is sadly out of touch, if the pizza dude wisely incorporated or LLCd.)

For SMB owners, the a classic trick is to reduce your salary to something quite small and then pay yourself in dividends. Depending upon the state of taxes at the time this can avoid a substantial amount of taxation (via dodging social security and other paycheck-tied taxes). Also spending pre-tax business revenues on "expenses" essential to the business. That's your "work vehicle", right? Etc.

Back in ~2001 if I recall correctly my old accountant had suggested I rework payroll around these numbers and it was startling how quickly I dodged a significant amount of taxes. Also, SMB also rarely means "rich", but commonly can/does mean "well-off". I'd say most "successful" SMB folks would perhaps bump that 250k hit on personal income depending upon their spouse. But of course when it isn't "income" and is "something else"...

When you're the boss and don't really have shareholders to account to, you can play a lot of games w/ revenue and taxes that would make the common person question your ethics. Any accountant or other business owner would simply feel you to be an utter fool if you didn't.

I'm paraphrasing others here but, you don't get rich working for somebody else.

Nobody was referring to small business owners when the issue of corporate money stockpiles is being discussed.

So, the correct answer is "0%".

Welfare Xmas: I'm sure none of this is true. Everybody knows that the "Rich" sit around all day plotting about how to take stuff from the "Poor" and then spend their leisure time laughing about how they're screwing Joe Average out of everything but the kitchen sink.

Everything the "Rich" have is stolen from people that don't have anything. It's the way the world works, nothing you can do about it.



EXACTLY - you take from the poor because they have all the good stuff..wait...anyway STORM the castle

When oh when will this tough economy ever go away?