DammitIForgotMyLogin: hb0mb: By the time Lopez arrived, several witnesses had pulled the unidentified man out of the water. Lopez said the man appeared semi-conscious and had water in his lungs.

Lopez said he and a off-duty nurse attended to the man until the city's paramedics arrived.


It doesn't sound like the life guard made any difference in rescuing this guy.

So he should have ignored the fact that there was a possibly dying man because, hey, somebody else is probably going to deal with it?

I wonder what Kitty Genovese would have thought of an attitude like that.

No, my point is that everyone is saying that this lifeguard somehow made a difference in rescuing the guy when in fact all the heavy lifting was already done when he got there. I don't think the lifeguard should have been fired for going to someone's aid. But in this case it sounds like he didn't make much of a difference, which to me makes him getting fired even worse.

Anyone who thinks the company is in the right is a gigantic moron and deserves to have their DNA removed from the pool in a non lifeguard protected area.

I hope his manager's home is 1500 feet outside a fire protection district & the company loses its contract with several cities over this matter.

One of my most recent jobs was as an Ellis guard at an indoor water park (I have many horror stories, but only one rescue under my belt). Nothing about this story surprises me, at all.

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Damn. $8.25 an hour!?!? That is insane. I made close ten, and that was guarding a POOL filled with mostly old people swimming laps, when I did it.

/Got the certification from a previous job
//Kept the books and paid for recertification (much cheaper than taking the classes all over)
///Fantastic investment for a quick boost in desirability for part time jobs.

$8.25? One of my friends was the lifeguard for a kiddie pool with, maybe, 3 inches of water and made $20 something an hour.

AverageAmericanGuy: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Damn. $8.25 an hour!?!? That is insane. I made close ten, and that was guarding a POOL filled with mostly old people swimming laps, when I did it.

Pools don't have the buoyancy that ocean water does. It's an easier job to save people from drowning in the ocean than it is at a pool. You totally earned that wage.

Yeah...the 2-4 foot waves at my pool washing over me while I'm drowning are being blamed for being less buoyant.

Sullyville: Tumunga: Being named Lopez, I bet it's real hard for him to fight the urge to jump in the water, let alone being paid the big bucks to pull people out of it.

/got nothing.

Wait. I'm trying to understand this racist joke. I thought it was black people who didn't swim? Can someone explain?

See, them there wetbacks swim across the Rio Grande, or the Gulf o' Mexico, to take our jerbs, so their instinct is to jump into the water, not get out of it...well, until they get here to Amurika, then they can't remember what a shower is for.

If we go with what you got, the guy the lifeguard helped save was black...probably.

Ok, I made the joke up. Apparently I'm not too good at it. For that, I apologize.

DammitIForgotMyLogin: So he should have ignored the fact that there was a possibly dying man because, hey, somebody else is probably going to deal with it?

I wonder what Kitty Genovese would have thought of an attitude like that.

Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
Murphy: Aye.

I was almost fired from a lifeguarding job for refusing to rescue a fake drowning victim after my shift was over and I had punched out for the day.

My reasoning: Nobody was in danger, I wan't getting paid any more, I don't want to get wet right before getting in my car and driving home.

My boss' reasoning: I was still in uniform (there were no rules that we had to change out of uniform when off-duty), it would look bad to the patrons that a lifeguard wasn't helping with the rescue

We had a 3 strike system, this was my only strike in 4 years.

/this was at a Ellis & Associates certified lifeguarding program

Sounds insane, but lt me explain it

-Liability. The company isn't insured for people in the unprotected area
-Safety- That area the victim was in is probably considered a risk area for a reason. In otherwords, the lifeguard could have been jeopardizing himself. Ever heard of people drowning after jumping in the water to save someone? May have been a similar situation with rogue tides/undertow possibilities. "Lifeguard and man drown after rescue attempt in dangerous waters fails" could have easily been an alternate headline.

doglover: Step one: Punch Susan Ellis in the coont so hard her GRANDKIDS will still have the headache when they're born. Then axe all the people at the company who made the call to fire him.

Step two: Give guy the job back.

Step three: Make it illegal for lifeguards who are saving a life to be liable for something that happens when they're busy; zones be damned.

Wouldn't a Good Samaritan law cover them in an instance like this. I had a job as a security guard one summer in college, left the property for twenty minutes to help a woman injured in a traffic accident, and when my supervisor came to biatch me out he told me they'd fire me if it weren't for the Good Samaritan law.

JSam21: AverageAmericanGuy: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Damn. $8.25 an hour!?!? That is insane. I made close ten, and that was guarding a POOL filled with mostly old people swimming laps, when I did it.

Pools don't have the buoyancy that ocean water does. It's an easier job to save people from drowning in the ocean than it is at a pool. You totally earned that wage.

Yeah because pools have rip tides....

Christ, this.

/was a lifeguard at a girl scout camp
//pulled one girl out
///still wasn't comfortable to apply for a Great Lakes gig even though my certs were up to date and those rip tides are far more predictable

This is one more reason why privatization and outsourcing generally result in failure.

Perhaps the city could do the people a favor and reintegrate such services with the city.

Lligeret: DrPainMD: I sound fat: DrPainMD: Kevin72: That's your future, America. Ghost of Christmas Future. Privatization. Outsourcing. Corporatization. Profits over people. I hope this alarms you the way Scrooge got alarmed on seeing his future.

Hmmm... let's look at the factors involved here:

1) Liability laws: blame falls on the government.
2) The decision to outsource: blame falls on the government.
2) The contract under which the lifeguard company was operating: blame falls on the government.

But, yeah, let's blame the private sector.

Dude, no offense, but in this case, a private company made a decision to reward a hero with a pink slip. that is not the government.

your #2 point does have merit.

See point #1: liability laws.

Liability laws are irrelevant because as the company said they had enough life guards to cover the designated area while the lifeguard was away assisting in the incident. The company has alternatives to firing an employees that was entirely there decision. Even if he broke the rules the company is the one that decides whether to blindly follow no tolerance or allow employees some level of discretion. In any business that is involved in save and protecting human life it is irresponsible of a company to cause doubt in their employee's mind, "Will I be fired for saving this person?" Should never be a possible thought that crosses their mind. Period. There is no excuse for it.

The person that should really be fired is whoever handed the lifeguard a pink slip, because if you are in a management position you have two potential options:
1. Fire an employee who assisted in a drowning incident and deal with negative publicity it causes.
or
2. Give a minor reprimand to an employee who assisted in a drowning incident and left their station (but it was covered while he was away so the company and swimmers should have had no liability/risk on their ends) and benefit from positive publicity of having employees that go above and beyond what they are required to do.

And you choose option number 1, you have no business managing anything, in particular anything that involves human life.



Also liability laws originated as a result of both private and public sector groups neglecting what should be a common sense responsibility of protecting life and general over all safety of workers, consumers, and any possible collateral damage whether human or property. It just has been abused by lawyers and people that it should be protecting.


Bottom line it is not a matter of Public vs Private. It is a matter of people a few people ruining everything for the majority of people. If people were not dicks in general this would not be an issue.

Well put.

Hooray privatization!

A rising tide lifts all boats; who gives a fark if a few swimmers down in it...

digitalrain: cbcs: Just leave them a message here, and let them know how you feel.
https://www.facebook.com/ellisandasso ciates

Looks like they took down their FB page. I try to go there and it redirects to my logged in FB main page.

That, and it looks like their FB link on their contact page is gone despite listing ~3600 fans.

octopied: -Liability. The company isn't insured for people in the unprotected area
-Safety- That area the victim was in is probably considered a risk area for a reason. In otherwords, the lifeguard could have been jeopardizing himself. Ever heard of people drowning after jumping in the water to save someone? May have been a similar situation with rogue tides/undertow possibilities. "Lifeguard and man drown after rescue attempt in dangerous waters fails" could have easily been an alternate headline.

Yet the same dangers apply to government-paid lifeguards. When you have a privately-run entity such as a corporation of consultants come in, the whole idea of liability suggests that they aren't the least interested in lifesaving.

Gawdzila: AverageAmericanGuy: Pools don't have the buoyancy that ocean water does. It's an easier job to save people from drowning in the ocean than it is at a pool.

Um, FAIL. Pools are also not as deep or large, have better visibility, don't have seaweed to wrap around your legs, and don't have currents (especially rip currents) to swim in while dragging a struggling drowner. So... no. Pools are not easier to lifeguard.

Whut?

OMFG that is some military grade bullshiat right there. The man should be lauded and thanked for his efforts not fired.

Also this kid of crap is why I detest cities/states/what ever farming out lifeguard duties to a private company rather than hiring them directly as a private company worries more about regulations, insurance costs and the bottom line than saving lives.

Anenu: This is a perfect example of why industries that are called on to save and protect lives should never ever be privatized.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

BizarreMan: Kevin72: Sullyville: Tumunga: Being named Lopez, I bet it's real hard for him to fight the urge to jump in the water, let alone being paid the big bucks to pull people out of it.

/got nothing.

Wait. I'm trying to understand this racist joke. I thought it was black people who didn't swim? Can someone explain?

Swimming across the Rio Grande to get into Texas. Yes I know it's Miami, but you know..... to racists, all them Lopezes are interchangeable.


I thought it was swimming from Cuba? This is Miami and all.

SHARKS!!!. And a little 90+ mile swim

That being said, since it is Miami, Lopez is likely to be Cuban and not to have swum across the Rio Grande.

ciberido: DrPainMD: 1) Liability laws: blame falls on the government.
2) The decision to outsource: blame falls on the government.
2) The contract under which the lifeguard company was operating: blame falls on the government.

But, yeah, let's blame the private sector.

So to sum up, Kevin72 says "privitazation is bad," and your response is, "yeah, but the government chose to privatize, therefore government is bad." Hmmmm.

That's some fine logic there, Lou.

DUDE, recalibrate your sarcastometer. Privatization is awful in this case. And I was using DrPainMD 's words to show how he is always blaming government, how he would be blaming government when a private company did the screwup.

tomerson: Why in the fark is there even discussion taking place under a Florida (we are idiots) tag,

It's like savoring the subtle nuances of a fine wine.

Darkraven: The company's Facebook page

Bahahahahaha - they took down their FB page!!

What a bunch of cowards.

Kevin72: $334,000 a year is $915 a day. We don't know how many non-oceanic swimming pools they staff, but 3 ocean staffers x $8.25 x 8 hours $198 a day.

Multiply the $198 by 1.6 to account for taxes, workers' comp, insurance, unemployment insurance, etc. Nevertheless, still far less than $915 a day.

Signs of mini fascism here.

wxboy: 1/3 of a mile away from your area is pretty far to go.

It should only take you a couple minutes at most to run that far when you're an in-shape lifeguard. It would probably take Hasselhoff longer.

You can do a lot of good in 2 minutes.

FTFA: "We have liability issues and can't go out of the protected area," Susan Ellis of lifeguard provider Jeff Ellis and Associates told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

Solution one: for every person who drowns in the unprotected area, drown a lawyer.

Solution two: Don't have lifeguards, that means zero liability then, right?

You might want to catch a Google cache of their website while you can, as they have decided to disappear for a while.

And people laughed at Bush Jr when he suggested Tort reform...

tsk tsk. Now our uncontrolled lawsuit culture is expanding well beyond health care, and interfering with much more.

sethstorm: You might want to catch a Google cache of their website while you can, as they have decided to disappear for a while.

That is...that is just too farking good. I've seen companies try to run damage control, but nothing like 'drop off the face of the earth'.

What have we come to as a species? Used to be if you helped save someone's life, you were called a hero. Now, we have to worry about getting sued, fired, or jailed. Why step up and save your fellow man when all it's going to do is get you into trouble?

yadumey: sethstorm: You might want to catch a Google cache of their website while you can, as they have decided to disappear for a while.

That is...that is just too farking good. I've seen companies try to run damage control, but nothing like 'drop off the face of the earth'.

I checked Google again, and here they are as well. They were up when that other URL was down, but they're also down as well.

Cache of the other site

In addition, they might want to change their quote when they bring their sites back up:
"Approaching ten years of unparalleled standards in aquatic facility management, our program boasts levels of safety and professionalism one would expect from a world-class resort. From the sandy beaches of South Florida, to Disney's brand new Aulani resort in Hawaii, the Jeff Ellis Management team's objective is simple: To provide the absolute highest standards of aquatic safety in a positive and professional manner. Our staff receives ongoing training in areas of accident prevention, emergency procedures, and customer service. This assures that your guests will have an enjoyable experience at a Jeff Ellis Managed facility, and most importantly a protected one."

/I wonder how long it'll be until they come back
//If they come back.

Kevin72: DrPainMD: Kevin72: That's your future, America. Ghost of Christmas Future. Privatization. Outsourcing. Corporatization. Profits over people. I hope this alarms you the way Scrooge got alarmed on seeing his future.

Hmmm... let's look at the factors involved here:

1) Liability laws: blame falls on the government.
2) The decision to outsource: blame falls on the government.
2) The contract under which the lifeguard company was operating: blame falls on the government.

But, yeah, let's blame the private sector.

We have to blame the private sector, because of the conservative wet dream of a private company in charge instead of the government. Fortunately, the man didn't drown. But of he did, I suppose it would have been the government's fault for outsourcing it to a private company. The important thing is that the man who didn't follow corporate dogma is fired and therefore can't get unemployment or a good reference.

Sigh. The man didn't ignore "corporate dogma," he ignored the government-negotiated contract and the government-created liability laws.

The local news just said that seven other lifeguards quit in protest.

I think that karma is a great thing. By firing the lifeguard, the outrageous compensation that the city is paying the company versus the pay that the lifeguards is receiving is coming to light. The city outsourced the lifeguard duties to save money. Obviously, there will be public pressure to question why there is such a disparity between the actual costs of the lifeguards and the excess money. Someone should be asking where the difference is going. But again this is America...

blanchae: I think that karma is a great thing. By firing the lifeguard, the outrageous compensation that the city is paying the company versus the pay that the lifeguards is receiving is coming to light. The city outsourced the lifeguard duties to save money. Obviously, there will be public pressure to question why there is such a disparity between the actual costs of the lifeguards and the excess money. Someone should be asking where the difference is going. But again this is America...

B-b-b-ut the GOP says government is evil and the free market can do no wrong.

Just look at every cell carrier and cable company -- they are the paragons of service, cost savings, and accountability!

FTFA: "City administrators declined to comment Tuesday, indicating that the firing was a personnel decision made by a private company."

Why governments love privatization, 101.

DrPainMD: FTA: "Hallandale Beach began outsourcing its lifeguards in 2003 as a money-saving measure. The city pays the company about $334,000 annually to provide four lifeguards and one supervisor at the beach year-round..."

At $8.25 per hour, the four lifeguards (assuming 40-hour weeks) cost $68,640 per year. That leaves $265,360 for the supervisor and administrative/overhead costs. Somehow, I don't think that they're saving money on the deal. I do, however, believe that a relative of someone on the city council owns the lifeguard company.

I want to be a lifeguard supervisor! Holy shiat! A little over a quarter of a million dollars a year would be nice, indeed.

Looks like their sites are overloaded, but up. However, their contact information is oddly missing.