FTFA: Grover Norquist of the then-quite-young Americans for Tax Reform rallied conservatives against the plan. Conservatives lost.

And then they were politically vindicated. The spending cuts never happened. Democrats cynically ran against Bush for lying about his "no-new-taxes pledge." (This was an important moment in the intellectual retreat liberals have made on tax policy.) After 1990, as Norquist has pointed out, no Republican in Congress has voted to hike tax rates.

If this is true, then maybe this explains some of the intransigence of the GOP?

Read his lips.

I've always respected HW, this confirms it.

I wanted him to with the Republican primary in 1980. His "voodoo economics" remark was right on target.

Subby, Grover Norquist is to poultry what Sandusky is to boys.

And he's a goddamned war hero.

George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole are the last two Republicans that don't make my skin crawl.

The schadenfreude of this slow motion throw Grover under the bus is highly amusing.

I remember when Huge Berserk Rebel Warthog was the epitome of right wing evil ... and now he's one of the (almost) sane conservatives.

Sigh.

doyner: Subby, Grover Norquist is to poultry what Sandusky is to boys.

I'm stealing that.

And yet, if they want to place blame, throw it at the infallible Grover. The man who rallied against a mild tax increase/spending adjustment got a Democrat (albeit, a conservative one) elected. That Democrat signed tax increases.

/Norquist should be tried for treason against the United States

mitchcumstein1: And he's a goddamned war hero.

George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole are the last two Republicans that don't make my skin crawl.

My first eligible election was '96 (narrowly missed '92), and I voted for Bob Dole. Yes, the guy currently known as a raging, stubborn libtard (and I am) at one point voted Republican. Some people get more conservative as they age; I went the other way.

I would like to point out that I was never, ever a college Republican. I just happened to vote for Dole because there were quite a few things I liked about him, and I was holding a grudge against Clinton on quite a few issues. But no, I was not the asshole interrupting a lecture to accuse his professor of liberal bias, or blubbering stupid sh*t into a bullhorn outside the cafeteria.

Searching my feelings just now, I can not find anything I despise more than college Republicans. They're nature's perfect storm of douchebaggery and whining.

As for GHW Bush, it's tough to dislike him too much, unless for his repugnant but powerless wife and, of course, for foisting his pox of a spawn on the world. Bush Sr. was a wickedly smart man, and not particularly cruel as is the SOP of the modern GOP. Sure, he pandered to idiots by claiming the Simpsons were destroying the moral fabric of our country, but on the whole he wasn't so bad. And remember, he was head of the CIA. Regardless of anyone's opinions about the man and his politics, or even the morality of the agency's actions, Director of CIA isn't exactly a job they just hand out to dipsh*ts.

doyner: Subby, Grover Norquist is to poultry what Sandusky is to boys.

Cyan #5

mitchcumstein1: And he's a goddamned war hero.

George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole are the last two Republicans that don't make my skin crawl.

and they're now both considered "RINOs". How sad....

Well. Way to go, George HW Bush.

Never thought I'd say that.

I feel bad for GHW Bush. He really was not a bad president, all things considered. and by "all things" I mean his son's administration. Bush the Elder didn't let jerks like Cheney and Rumsfeld run the show, they were back-benchers, the B team. Bush I knew how to keep them on a short leash.

At one point in Bush II's presidency I started thinking to myself, "can't we let his dad come back?"

RINO

xanadian: FTFA: Grover Norquist of the then-quite-young Americans for Tax Reform rallied conservatives against the plan. Conservatives lost.

And then they were politically vindicated. The spending cuts never happened. Democrats cynically ran against Bush for lying about his "no-new-taxes pledge." (This was an important moment in the intellectual retreat liberals have made on tax policy.) After 1990, as Norquist has pointed out, no Republican in Congress has voted to hike tax rates.

If this is true, then maybe this explains some of the intransigence of the GOP?

Well, if he hadn't made "Read my lips: no new taxes" a cornerstone of his campaign, perhaps it wouldn't have been as much of a betrayal when he signed a fairly reasonable tax bill. Dude brought his own rope to the table to hang himself.

Egalitarian: I feel bad for GHW Bush. He really was not a bad president, all things considered. and by "all things" I mean his son's administration.

I feel bad that he spawned at least one totally worthless son.

yeah man-child Grover needs to grow up.
you have to pay the bills.
you can't default the US on it's debt.
and holding it up for hostage just so you can keep tax cuts for the wealthy will carry a political toll if the media would ever frame it as such.

who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?



Some sock puppet for the Koch brothers and their ilk.

Egalitarian: I feel bad for GHW Bush. He really was not a bad president, all things considered.

I was going to say something about appointing Clarence Thomas, but then I remembered that he balanced that out with Souter. That was amusing.

He's the seventh grader who had this idea one day that it would be a good idea to make politicians promise to never, ever raise taxes. He then spent the rest of his life in a state of arrested development, never considering, even for a moment, that this oversimplistic, silly idea was anything other than the greatest idea anyone had ever come up with in the history of ever and that he should actually ask members of Congress to sign his pledge.

dickfreckle: mitchcumstein1: And he's a goddamned war hero.

George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole are the last two Republicans that don't make my skin crawl.

My first eligible election was '96 (narrowly missed '92), and I voted for Bob Dole. Yes, the guy currently known as a raging, stubborn libtard (and I am) at one point voted Republican. Some people get more conservative as they age; I went the other way.

I would like to point out that I was never, ever a college Republican. I just happened to vote for Dole because there were quite a few things I liked about him, and I was holding a grudge against Clinton on quite a few issues. But no, I was not the asshole interrupting a lecture to accuse his professor of liberal bias, or blubbering stupid sh*t into a bullhorn outside the cafeteria.

Searching my feelings just now, I can not find anything I despise more than college Republicans. They're nature's perfect storm of douchebaggery and whining.

As for GHW Bush, it's tough to dislike him too much, unless for his repugnant but powerless wife and, of course, for foisting his pox of a spawn on the world. Bush Sr. was a wickedly smart man, and not particularly cruel as is the SOP of the modern GOP. Sure, he pandered to idiots by claiming the Simpsons were destroying the moral fabric of our country, but on the whole he wasn't so bad. And remember, he was head of the CIA. Regardless of anyone's opinions about the man and his politics, or even the morality of the agency's actions, Director of CIA isn't exactly a job they just hand out to dipsh*ts.

Join the club. In fact, are you and me the same person? I worked on the Dole campaign, actually. I liked the man. Him and HW represent the last of the classic Conservatives, the Buckley Conservatives. I went passive in 2000 and it took until 2008 for full libtard to kick in.

doyner: Subby, Grover Norquist is to poultry what Sandusky is to boys.

Thread over, man. Thread over!

lilbjorn: who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?

[t3.gstatic.com image 205x246]

Some sock puppet for the Koch brothers and their ilk.

ahhh so *that's* how this whole "muppet" thing I've been hearing in politics threads got started...

xanadian: FTFA: Grover Norquist of the then-quite-young Americans for Tax Reform rallied conservatives against the plan. Conservatives lost.

And then they were politically vindicated. The spending cuts never happened. Democrats cynically ran against Bush for lying about his "no-new-taxes pledge." (This was an important moment in the intellectual retreat liberals have made on tax policy.) After 1990, as Norquist has pointed out, no Republican in Congress has voted to hike tax rates.

If this is true, then maybe this explains some of the intransigence of the GOP?

losing the presidency is always a big f-ing deal in politics

And he'll be added to the long list of RINOs

I firmly believe he's one of the last truly strategic thinkers in American politics.

I know there's a lot of Clinton love here, but Clinton didn't win that 1992 election on his own merits*. Perot handed it to him on a platter.

People forget he lost not because of that, but because he somehow slighted Perot in the past, and the man vowed to destroy him. There's no hate like Texas hate. Even after he dropped out (mostly because he thought he had a shot at winning if I'm remembering my history correctly) and came back into the race he pulled something like 20% of the popular vote. Mostly from right wing voters. That was very significant in the grand scheme of things and definitely made Clinton's win look more substantial than it was.

I also think Perot's initial run is why Republican party discipline is now so good, and they maintain it not just at the office holder, but through all levels via strategic messaging and outstanding media discipline.

/*Not to say I don't like Clinton, I thought he did a pretty darn good job for 8 years. I question whether Dole would have been any better or worse during the second 4 though.
//CSB: Perot went to my alma mater. The guy basically invented the Honor Concept at the Naval Academy.
///Do I have enough of these yet?

duffman13: People forget he lost not because of that, but because he somehow slighted Perot in the past, and the man vowed to destroy him. There's no hate like Texas hate. Even after he dropped out (mostly because he thought he had a shot at winning if I'm remembering my history correctly) and came back into the race he pulled something like 20% of the popular vote. Mostly from right wing voters. That was very significant in the grand scheme of things and definitely made Clinton's win look more substantial than it was.

I wanna say 11%.

Boxcutta: He's the seventh grader who had this idea one day that it would be a good idea to make politicians promise to never, ever raise taxes. He then spent the rest of his life in a state of arrested development, never considering, even for a moment, that this oversimplistic, silly idea was anything other than the greatest idea anyone had ever come up with in the history of ever and that he should actually ask members of Congress to sign his pledge.

He can be forgiven for that; he's just one guy with an idea. The people who are truly at fault here are the members of Congress who consider their oath to him, and not their oath of office, to be paramount.

qorkfiend: Boxcutta: He's the seventh grader who had this idea one day that it would be a good idea to make politicians promise to never, ever raise taxes. He then spent the rest of his life in a state of arrested development, never considering, even for a moment, that this oversimplistic, silly idea was anything other than the greatest idea anyone had ever come up with in the history of ever and that he should actually ask members of Congress to sign his pledge.

He can be forgiven for that; he's just one guy with an idea. The people who are truly at fault here are the members of Congress who consider their oath to him, and not their oath of office, to be paramount.

Congress is run by a seventh grader. That explains a lot.

Dafatone: duffman13: People forget he lost not because of that, but because he somehow slighted Perot in the past, and the man vowed to destroy him. There's no hate like Texas hate. Even after he dropped out (mostly because he thought he had a shot at winning if I'm remembering my history correctly) and came back into the race he pulled something like 20% of the popular vote. Mostly from right wing voters. That was very significant in the grand scheme of things and definitely made Clinton's win look more substantial than it was.

I wanna say 11%.

19% in 1992. 9% in 1996.

But exit polls show that he mostly got people out to vote who wouldn't have voted otherwise. He really didn't directly take GHWB's voters.

duffman13: And he'll be added to the long list of RINOs

I think he's been on the list for a while now, as the guy who called Reaganomics "voodoo economics".

I really like George H. W. Bush.

George H. W. Bush and Clinton - the best of time.

Boxcutta: He's the seventh grader who had this idea one day that it would be a good idea to make politicians promise to never, ever raise taxes. He then spent the rest of his life in a state of arrested development, never considering, even for a moment, that this oversimplistic, silly idea was anything other than the greatest idea anyone had ever come up with in the history of ever and that he should actually ask members of Congress to sign his pledge.

Anyone who signed that thing should be barred from running for any office ever again.

Dafatone: duffman13: People forget he lost not because of that, but because he somehow slighted Perot in the past, and the man vowed to destroy him. There's no hate like Texas hate. Even after he dropped out (mostly because he thought he had a shot at winning if I'm remembering my history correctly) and came back into the race he pulled something like 20% of the popular vote. Mostly from right wing voters. That was very significant in the grand scheme of things and definitely made Clinton's win look more substantial than it was.

I wanna say 11%.

too bad with this whole internet here I'm not going to bother to look up these facts.

oh, wait.

On November 3, Bill Clinton won the election to be the 42nd President of the United States by a wide margin in the Electoral College, receiving 43 percent of the popular vote against Bush's 37 percent and Perot's 19%. It was the second largest electoral vote shift in American history (517 vote shift), after Jimmy Carter's victory in 1976 (560 vote shift). It was the first time since 1968 that a candidate won the White House with under 50 percent of the popular vote. Only Washington, D.C. and Clinton's home state of Arkansas gave the majority of their votes to a single candidate in the entire country; the rest were won by pluralities of the vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_S tates_presidential_election,_199 2

Nem Wan: qorkfiend: Boxcutta: He's the seventh grader who had this idea one day that it would be a good idea to make politicians promise to never, ever raise taxes. He then spent the rest of his life in a state of arrested development, never considering, even for a moment, that this oversimplistic, silly idea was anything other than the greatest idea anyone had ever come up with in the history of ever and that he should actually ask members of Congress to sign his pledge.

He can be forgiven for that; he's just one guy with an idea. The people who are truly at fault here are the members of Congress who consider their oath to him, and not their oath of office, to be paramount.

Congress is run by a seventh grader. That explains a lot.

THESE.

HW was an alright POTUS, saner than Reagan certainly.

Grover Norquist is the boil on the GOP's ass that needs to be lanced stat before the rot sets in.

Norquist has all but admitted that the point of his idiotic exercise isn't so much a question of policy as it is a question of branding. He felt that the Republican party would have a better chance of getting elected if they branded themselves to a certain one-note ideal and then turned that ideal into an act of policy. Watch him deflect whenever someone like Jon Stewart asks him what politicians are supposed to do when something expensive and unforeseen happens - a war, a natural disaster, an economic crisis. He simply does...not...give...a fark. He isn't even remotely interested. If a meteor were about to hit and wipe out all of humanity and the only way to save it was to raise taxes, he would let the world burn.

There is something extraordinarily WRONG with that man, wrong in a deranged sense. He has the beaming stupidity of a true-believer, the grinning absolutism of religious fervor and the meathook certainty that he's the Arbiter. I have the strange feeling that he'd be a very, very dangerous man if he didn't get his own way. He is not operating on a rational level.

HW is a LIB and a RINO

mitchcumstein1: And he's a goddamned war hero.

George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole are the last two Republicans that don't make my skin crawl.

i always thought of them as good, decent men. now they are rinos, never really spoken of and in no way relatable to the gop.

Perks of being a former president:

secret service protection
classified daily briefings
generous pension
wear whatever damn socks you want

Why do I admire George H. W. Bush? Here, I'll let Wikipedia give you the run-down:

"Bush piloted one of four Grumman TBM Avenger aircraft from VT-51 that attacked the Japanese installations on Chichijima. His crew for the mission, which occurred on September 2, 1944, included Radioman Second Class John Delaney and Lieutenant Junior Grade William White. During their attack, the Avengers encountered intense anti-aircraft fire; Bush's aircraft was hit by flak and his engine caught on fire. Despite his plane being on fire, Bush completed his attack and released bombs over his target, scoring several damaging hits. With his engine afire, Bush flew several miles from the island, where he and one other crew member on the TBM Avenger bailed out of the aircraft; the other man's parachute did not open. It has not been determined which man bailed out with Bush as both Delaney and White were killed as a result of the battle. Bush waited for four hours in an inflated raft, while several fighters circled protectively overhead until he was rescued by the lifeguard submarine USS Finback. For the next month he remained on the Finback, and participated in the rescue of other pilots."

Brave, honorable, humble, wickedly intelligent... not without flaws, of course, but he has served our country well for much of his life. And I say this as one of those oft-derided "libby-libs". coont7 is well named.

Tax Boy: wear whatever damn socks you want

LIKE A BOSS

xanadian: FTFA: Grover Norquist of the then-quite-young Americans for Tax Reform rallied conservatives against the plan. Conservatives lost.

And then they were politically vindicated. The spending cuts never happened. Democrats cynically ran against Bush for lying about his "no-new-taxes pledge." (This was an important moment in the intellectual retreat liberals have made on tax policy.) After 1990, as Norquist has pointed out, no Republican in Congress has voted to hike tax rates.

If this is true, then maybe this explains some of the intransigence of the GOP?

Harry Reid also used the pro forma sessions against Bush to block appointments. Democrats do share some blame for the current climate, but Republicans, of course, bear responsibility for their own (in)actions.

one0nine: Why do I admire George H. W. Bush? Here, I'll let Wikipedia give you the run-down:

"Bush piloted one of four Grumman TBM Avenger aircraft from VT-51 that attacked the Japanese installations on Chichijima. His crew for the mission, which occurred on September 2, 1944, included Radioman Second Class John Delaney and Lieutenant Junior Grade William White. During their attack, the Avengers encountered intense anti-aircraft fire; Bush's aircraft was hit by flak and his engine caught on fire. Despite his plane being on fire, Bush completed his attack and released bombs over his target, scoring several damaging hits. With his engine afire, Bush flew several miles from the island, where he and one other crew member on the TBM Avenger bailed out of the aircraft; the other man's parachute did not open. It has not been determined which man bailed out with Bush as both Delaney and White were killed as a result of the battle. Bush waited for four hours in an inflated raft, while several fighters circled protectively overhead until he was rescued by the lifeguard submarine USS Finback. For the next month he remained on the Finback, and participated in the rescue of other pilots."

Brave, honorable, humble, wickedly intelligent... not without flaws, of course, but he has served our country well for much of his life. And I say this as one of those oft-derided "libby-libs". coont7 is well named.

Anyone who has the balls to volunteer to sit in an airplane that's being shot at, and then continue to sit in the airplane while it's on fire, deserves only our respect.

Therion: Read his lips.

He doesn't have any.

I love how the Americans for Tax Reform at the end of the article tries to use a 20-year old quote to refute what HW is saying today.

Maybe things have changed in the past twenty years?

Because they do, ya know. Change, I mean.

Boxcutta: He's the seventh grader who had this idea one day that it would be a good idea to make politicians promise to never, ever raise taxes. He then spent the rest of his life in a state of arrested development, never considering, even for a moment, that this oversimplistic, silly idea was anything other than the greatest idea anyone had ever come up with in the history of ever and that he should actually ask members of Congress to sign his pledge.



"Exactly. I am so smart, I came up with that when I was only twelve. And now people are losing elections for failing to follow my ideas! I am that far mentally above you f*cks!"

peasandcarrots: Norquist has all but admitted that the point of his idiotic exercise isn't so much a question of policy as it is a question of branding. He felt that the Republican party would have a better chance of getting elected if they branded themselves to a certain one-note ideal and then turned that ideal into an act of policy. Watch him deflect whenever someone like Jon Stewart asks him what politicians are supposed to do when something expensive and unforeseen happens - a war, a natural disaster, an economic crisis. He simply does...not...give...a fark. He isn't even remotely interested. If a meteor were about to hit and wipe out all of humanity and the only way to save it was to raise taxes, he would let the world burn.

There is something extraordinarily WRONG with that man, wrong in a deranged sense. He has the beaming stupidity of a true-believer, the grinning absolutism of religious fervor and the meathook certainty that he's the Arbiter. I have the strange feeling that he'd be a very, very dangerous man if he didn't get his own way. He is not operating on a rational level.

Lots of people have stupid ideas. The part you're missing is that somebody has to be bankrolling this. Who, and why?

Riothamus: But exit polls show that he mostly got people out to vote who wouldn't have voted otherwise. He really didn't directly take GHWB's voters.

More important than exit polls, the percentage of voting age people who voted when up 5%, which is very significant:
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/t urnout.php

1988: 50.15%
1992: 55.23%
1996: 49.08%

I think it was a combination though of Perot & Clinton in 1992 driving the number up... Clinton did energize the core democrats as well.

2008 had the highest turnout since 1968 (the last election before 18-20 year olds could vote).

Nem Wan: Congress is run by a seventh grader. That explains a lot.



"Not just any seventh grader - we're talking about me here."