Jake Havechek: Tim Burton did his Batman as the highly stylized comic book style. Nicholson was over the top as The Joker. The set design was just amazing. The new Batman flicks do it as a realistic, this-could-actually-happen type of thing. So I can't see how you can compare and contrast the two, as they both stand on their own merits.

I agree with this. Both types of Batman have been really good. I like the old Burton movies a bit better than the new ones, but that has to do with what a Batman movie should be to me. But, yeah, Bale is a much better Bruce Wayne.

Next Bats should be the World's Greatest Detective and a good scientist. And not be so emo. And no origin.

HotIgneous Intruder: I heard a rumor that actual adults will stop displaying regressive behavior, give up reading childrens' comic books, and stop shiatting up the internet with their senseless prattling about that activity.

I heard a rumor that trolling Fark threads is irrefutable proof that you like to have sex with diseased rats.

Tannhauser: I like the old Burton movies a bit better than the new ones, but that has to do with what a Batman movie should be to me.

A batman who has machine guns on his batmobile, and blows people up? Because that is what Burton's batman kind of was to me.

Personally, I think Samuel L. Jackson would've made a better Batman than either of them.

then again, I think SLJ would be better in ANY role than just about ANYBODY.

Fano: Camryn Mannheim as Joker? I heard it on fark.
Then again, Tennant as Riddler and Fairuza Balk as Harley Quinn would be locks, if only Hollywood would make it so.

Fairuza Balk, talk about a woman who goes from hot to ugly to hot again, depending on the angle.

qsblues: Personally, I think Samuel L. Jackson would've made a better Batman than either of them.

then again, I think SLJ would be better in ANY role than just about ANYBODY.

I read a rumor they are pursuing him for Christ for the 'Passion of the Christ' reboot.

On another note, I finally looked up this Kevin Conroy fella you guys have been writing about. Been a long time since I've watched anything animated in the Batman arena, so have no idea who he is. IMO, he's totally suitable for a live action Bruce Wayne if it's a passing of the torch story.

fark Michael Keaton

Teufelaffe: Nana's Vibrator: Robin Williams takes a beating in this article. But he did have the last laugh. He landed the coveted role in Death to Smoochie. Which was essentially the same movie as Batman and Robin: 2 hours of people dressed up in costumes who make me want to stab myself

That's not a fair comparison. Death to Smoochie was a much better film. Batman and Robin is in running with The Quest for the coveted title of Worst Movie Ever Made That Isn't Manos: Hands of Fate or Plan 9 From Outer Space.

The Quest in the realm of "worst movie ever made"? You seriously need to check yourself.

NOTHING can ever stoop lower than "Battlefield:Earth" for the coveted title of worst movie ever.

EVER.

My favourite true story about the 89 batman and the sequels is how back when the first movie was cast Billie Dee Williams wanted to be Harvey Dent, because he knew Harvey would eventually become two face. I guess they weren't really sure they would ever use two-face in the sequels, so he had some pretty iron clad clauses in his contract that he would always play Harvey in the sequels. So when Batman Forever rolls around and they recast the godawful Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face Billie Dee made a crapload of money since they had to basically buy out his contract to allow someone else to play the Two-Face.

qsblues: Personally, I think Samuel L. Jackson would've made a better Batman than either of them.

then again, I think SLJ would be better in ANY role than just about ANYBODY.

SLJ as Hamlet:

Alas, poor Yorick! I knew that mutherfarker, Horatio: a fellow
of infinite biatchin' jest, of most excellent farking fancy: he hath
borne me on his back like a mutherfarkin' pony a thousand times; and now, how
farkin' abhorred in my imagination it is! my farkin' gorge rims at
it. Here hung those lips that I have farkin' kissed I know
not how oft. Where be your farkin' gibes now? your
farkin' gambols? your mutherfarkin' songs? your flashes of merriment,
that were wont to set the table on a roar like a biatch? Not farkin' one
now, to mock your own grinning? farkin' chap-fallen?
Now get you to my lady's chamber, and tell that biatch, let
her paint an farkin' inch thick, to this favour that biatch must
come; make her farkin' laugh at that.

/Please forgive me, it sounded funny in my head

Mi-5: Teufelaffe: Nana's Vibrator: Robin Williams takes a beating in this article. But he did have the last laugh. He landed the coveted role in Death to Smoochie. Which was essentially the same movie as Batman and Robin: 2 hours of people dressed up in costumes who make me want to stab myself

That's not a fair comparison. Death to Smoochie was a much better film. Batman and Robin is in running with The Quest for the coveted title of Worst Movie Ever Made That Isn't Manos: Hands of Fate or Plan 9 From Outer Space.

The Quest in the realm of "worst movie ever made"? You seriously need to check yourself.

NOTHING can ever stoop lower than "Battlefield:Earth" for the coveted title of worst movie ever.

EVER.

Who's Your Caddy? or Soul Plane.

/Never seen it.

Jake Havechek: Tim Burton did his Batman as the highly stylized comic book style. Nicholson was over the top as The Joker. The set design was just amazing. The new Batman flicks do it as a realistic, this-could-actually-happen type of thing. So I can't see how you can compare and contrast the two, as they both stand on their own merits.

Seriously? Your impression of Nolan's Batman movies is that:

(1) they're not stylized
(2) they're realistic

The conclusions I'm drawing from this are:

(1) You've never seen any other movies
(2) You've never seen actual reality

Holy shiat, you're one of the Toons from "Cool World"! Tell Brad Pitt that we folks of Earth say hello.

Mi-5: Teufelaffe: Nana's Vibrator: Robin Williams takes a beating in this article. But he did have the last laugh. He landed the coveted role in Death to Smoochie. Which was essentially the same movie as Batman and Robin: 2 hours of people dressed up in costumes who make me want to stab myself

That's not a fair comparison. Death to Smoochie was a much better film. Batman and Robin is in running with The Quest for the coveted title of Worst Movie Ever Made That Isn't Manos: Hands of Fate or Plan 9 From Outer Space.

The Quest in the realm of "worst movie ever made"? You seriously need to check yourself.

NOTHING can ever stoop lower than "Battlefield:Earth" for the coveted title of worst movie ever.

EVER.

I'll be honest, I've never actually seen Battlefield Earth. I've heard about it though...stories told over the campfire, tales of horror and suffering the likes of which I'd never heard before.

AnotherBluesStringer: Mi-5: Teufelaffe: Nana's Vibrator: Robin Williams takes a beating in this article. But he did have the last laugh. He landed the coveted role in Death to Smoochie. Which was essentially the same movie as Batman and Robin: 2 hours of people dressed up in costumes who make me want to stab myself

That's not a fair comparison. Death to Smoochie was a much better film. Batman and Robin is in running with The Quest for the coveted title of Worst Movie Ever Made That Isn't Manos: Hands of Fate or Plan 9 From Outer Space.

The Quest in the realm of "worst movie ever made"? You seriously need to check yourself.

NOTHING can ever stoop lower than "Battlefield:Earth" for the coveted title of worst movie ever.

EVER.

Who's Your Caddy? or Soul Plane.

/Never seen it.

No,he's right: "Battlefield:Earth" is practically unwatchable. There are some scenes in your two choices that are bearable for longer than three minutes,maybe longer,before you're forced to the vomitorium. No such luck with "B:E".

Nana's Vibrator: Robin Williams takes a beating in this article. But he did have the last laugh. He landed the coveted role in Death to Smoochie. Which was essentially the same movie as Batman and Robin: 2 hours of people dressed up in costumes who make me want to stab myself

Love Death to Smoochie!! I thought it was funny as hell...

Jim_Callahan: Jake Havechek: Tim Burton did his Batman as the highly stylized comic book style. Nicholson was over the top as The Joker. The set design was just amazing. The new Batman flicks do it as a realistic, this-could-actually-happen type of thing. So I can't see how you can compare and contrast the two, as they both stand on their own merits.

Seriously? Your impression of Nolan's Batman movies is that:

(1) they're not stylized
(2) they're realistic

The conclusions I'm drawing from this are:

(1) You've never seen any other movies
(2) You've never seen actual reality

Holy shiat, you're one of the Toons from "Cool World"! Tell Brad Pitt that we folks of Earth say hello.

Easy, fanboy.

they should have cast Sam Jackson as Nick Fury in the Avengers ... he would have been much better than the guy they had...he sucked!



you wanna get nuts let get nuts

FTA:

" Fans were in an uproar over that decision, which caused them to make absurd guesses on villains like Tom Cruise as Cluemaster and Tim Booth as Victor Zsasz."

Tim Booth did appear as Victor Zsasz.

Bale is, what, fourth best Batman? Maybe fifth?

Keaton, West, and Kevin Conroy are all better Batman then Mr. Throat Lozenge who is done with you professionally.

Nana's Vibrator: I can say this: Batman and Robin is what caused me to not care about Batman Begins and not see it until someone shoved their DVD into my hands and made me watch it. I made no distinction and figured BB would be just as bad.

Batman Begins wasn't a great movie by any means. It was a solid, darkish action movie. I don't know how the new movie will turn out, but it seems to be on the Star Wars original trilogy arc of solid, awesome, and pretty good with great parts but also not so great*

*-based on some of the reviews

bhcompy: Star Wars original trilogy

Based on a few reviews, I'm definitely seeing at least two Ewok moments in the new one. At least one completely bone-headed and out-of-character plot points on Bane's part.

FirstNationalBastard: Bale is, what, fourth best Batman? Maybe fifth?

Keaton, West, and Kevin Conroy are all better Batman then Mr. Throat Lozenge who is done with you professionally.

Why do people have such a hard time admitting the stuff they liked as kids was mostly crap?

browntimmy: FirstNationalBastard: Bale is, what, fourth best Batman? Maybe fifth?

Keaton, West, and Kevin Conroy are all better Batman then Mr. Throat Lozenge who is done with you professionally.

Why do people have such a hard time admitting the stuff they liked as kids was mostly crap?

Probably the same reason people have to cling to grim, gritty, 10% rastafied reboots and get psychotic whenever someone points out they may not be the BESTEST, KEWLEST THING EVAR.

FirstNationalBastard: Why do people have such a hard time admitting the stuff they liked as kids was mostly crap?

Probably the same reason people have to cling to grim, gritty, 10% rastafied reboots and get psychotic whenever someone points out they may not be the BESTEST, KEWLEST THING EVAR.

Thank you.

Keaton and Bale are functional Batmans. They get in the costumes and don't fark up. Neither made the role come to life, in either form. They were the beneficiaries of some good directors at the top of their game. But one incarnation was like a gothic comic book; the other is pop grit. Any claim that one is better or worse than the other purely based on the stylistic decisions pretty much drops off the table in terms of credibility.

The credit I'd give to Bale is that he's willing to endure any punishment for a role, so he certainly looked the part. My opinion of his dedication to his roles has definitely improved over the years. But while I might go as far as call him good, he'll never be great because he can never really define a role. He plays the expectation perfectly and that's as far as it goes. He actually was good in The Dark Knight but he was completely overshadowed by Heath Ledger. Holy fark, what a performance.

dragonchild: He actually was good in The Dark Knight but he was completely overshadowed by Heath Ledger, Michael Caine, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Aaron Eckhart, Gary Oldman, and Morgan Freeman.

FTFY

I'm not saying Bale didn't do a good job in The Dark Knight, but his performance was easily the weakest of all the major characters.

LucklessWonder: DarkPascual: While I think that Keaton is a (slightly) better Batman, Bale is a better Bruce Wayne, in my opinion...

I think you have that exactly backwards. But then We all know what opinions are like.

Worse live-action Batman, Kilmer or Clooney?

Thats though... I think that Clooney was better casted (least awfully casted), but Kilmer screwed up the least...

The reason why I think that Keaton is a better Batman is that he manages to be more intimidating saying less, but that could be the fact that the costume makes him look more like a ghost, while the DK suit looks like something more functional.

But Bale managed to work better as Bruce Wayne dealing with the different personalities and facets of the character (the playboy, the warrior, the angry young man, the detective).

Honestly, I´ve loved the franchise so far, and all that I ask is a fitting conclusion to the saga, but in Nolan I trust.

Begins was a tough act to follow, and DK did wonders doing it, so I´m confident in DKR toping what the previous movie did.

browntimmy: FirstNationalBastard: Bale is, what, fourth best Batman? Maybe fifth?

Keaton, West, and Kevin Conroy are all better Batman then Mr. Throat Lozenge who is done with you professionally.

Why do people have such a hard time admitting the stuff they liked as kids was mostly crap?

Why do people have such a hard time admitting the old ways are the best?

AnotherBluesStringer: Mi-5: Teufelaffe: Nana's Vibrator: Robin Williams takes a beating in this article. But he did have the last laugh. He landed the coveted role in Death to Smoochie. Which was essentially the same movie as Batman and Robin: 2 hours of people dressed up in costumes who make me want to stab myself

That's not a fair comparison. Death to Smoochie was a much better film. Batman and Robin is in running with The Quest for the coveted title of Worst Movie Ever Made That Isn't Manos: Hands of Fate or Plan 9 From Outer Space.

The Quest in the realm of "worst movie ever made"? You seriously need to check yourself.

NOTHING can ever stoop lower than "Battlefield:Earth" for the coveted title of worst movie ever.

EVER.

Who's Your Caddy? or Soul Plane.

/Never seen it.

Ishtar doesn't have time to bleed.

Teufelaffe: He actually was good in The Dark Knight but he was completely overshadowed by Heath Ledger, Michael Caine, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Aaron Eckhart, Gary Oldman, and Morgan Freeman.

FTFY

Were you checking to see if I was paying attention? I've watched the movie several times and I still can't figure out if Rachel was supposed to be anything other than a love interest. She's about as vapid as Bella in Twilight and that character was designed to be vapid.

This is speculation, but I think Nolan had a vision of Batman/Bruce being various personalities, but above all an inherently lonely and brooding character. I daresay the moments with Fox or Alfred were the "real" Bruce, where he's rather subdued. Point being he isn't comfortable that way around anyone but his most trusted friends. There was a fair bit of dialogue in TDK focused on Batman being a manifestation of Bruce's identity crisis. I think Bale did an OK job with a difficult role; to be fair it's very hard to "act" a character hiding behind various masks without overdoing it. The safe but boring move is to just play each scene straight up, and that's precisely what Bale did. So I maintain he was functional, but he didn't get close to wearing the skin of the character. Without any apparent tension within his identity (you honestly don't get that feeling at all), he was really just a wooden doll dressing up and moving from scene to scene.

So, I wouldn't call his performance "weak" so much as he's a "pretty good" actor who just wasn't up to the challenge Nolan gave him. Others had comparatively simple roles, but Ledger really transcended his written role, which made Bale's failure more apparent.

John Buck 41: browntimmy: FirstNationalBastard: Bale is, what, fourth best Batman? Maybe fifth?

Keaton, West, and Kevin Conroy are all better Batman then Mr. Throat Lozenge who is done with you professionally.

Why do people have such a hard time admitting the stuff they liked as kids was mostly crap?

Why do people have such a hard time admitting the old ways are the best?

Yes, when I think Batman I want it to take place in the daytime, have coked-up out-of-shape actors phoning it in, costumes that look like they were thrown together from shiat they found at a garage sale, writing that treats its kid audience like they're stupid, a retarded sidekick who only knows how to say one phrase...

...yep, TV's golden era.

Teufelaffe: Nana's Vibrator: Robin Williams takes a beating in this article. But he did have the last laugh. He landed the coveted role in Death to Smoochie. Which was essentially the same movie as Batman and Robin: 2 hours of people dressed up in costumes who make me want to stab myself

That's not a fair comparison. Death to Smoochie was a much better film. Batman and Robin is in running with The Quest for the coveted title of Worst Movie Ever Made That Isn't Manos: Hands of Fate or Plan 9 From Outer Space.

I've always contended that that title belonged to Asylum of Satan.

/Death to Smoochie was better.

I think you guys are all forgetting Katie Holmes' outstanding performance as whatever her character's name was.

And


And Nicholson was just Nicholson.

Off to go see per-screening of DKR in about 30 minutes.
Then gonna catch "shut up and play the hits" later tonight. best movie day ever

Lord Dimwit: Kevin Conroy is better than both of 'em.

Colour_out_of_Space: I think you guys are all forgetting Katie Holmes' outstanding performance as whatever her character's name was.

And
[img502.imageshack.us image 567x425]

And Nicholson was just Nicholson.




The next FARKER who suggests a goddamn *VOICE ACTOR* is a better live action Batman is getting a shot to the junk!

/same with Joker: NO Mark Hamill!

peterthx: Lord Dimwit: Kevin Conroy is better than both of 'em.

Colour_out_of_Space: I think you guys are all forgetting Katie Holmes' outstanding performance as whatever her character's name was.

And
[img502.imageshack.us image 567x425]

And Nicholson was just Nicholson.

[rlv.zcache.com image 400x400]


The next FARKER who suggests a goddamn *VOICE ACTOR* is a better live action Batman is getting a shot to the junk!

/same with Joker: NO Mark Hamill!

Hamill is no longer the definitive Joker, but neither is Ledger. They're both excellent.
Conroy is the definitive Batman in the spirit of the comic, though West definitely owns his own Batman better than any other Batman.

In summary, fark you.

/this is kind of similar to Bond
//Dalton is largely considered one of the worst Bonds in film, yet in the spirit of the character in literature he's probably the best

ELF Radio: AnotherBluesStringer: I really wish Nolan would have made one movie where Batman was a detective.

Yeah, and how come he's not a scientist, either? I mean, in Batman Begins, we see all those years that explained how Bruce Wayne was able to become physically prepared to become a superhero by relentlessly training with the League of Shadows, but after he left Nepal they should have shown him getting several advanced degrees from prestigious colleges... because Batman IS a scientist!

(Chill out, man, you can only do so much in movies before it gets ludicrous.)

I wish they had made one where Batman was a ballet dancer. I mean the guy is graceful as all heck AND he wears tights.

bhcompy: Hamill is no longer the definitive Joker, but neither is Ledger. They're both excellent.
Conroy is the definitive Batman in the spirit of the comic, though West definitely owns his own Batman better than any other Batman.

In summary, fark you

And fark you if you're moronic enough to compare a live action performance to someone in a recording booth and drawn by an army of animators.

peterthx: Lord Dimwit: Kevin Conroy is better than both of 'em.

Colour_out_of_Space: I think you guys are all forgetting Katie Holmes' outstanding performance as whatever her character's name was.

And
[img502.imageshack.us image 567x425]

And Nicholson was just Nicholson.

[rlv.zcache.com image 400x400]


The next FARKER who suggests a goddamn *VOICE ACTOR* is a better live action Batman is getting a shot to the junk!

/same with Joker: NO Mark Hamill!

I never said Conroy was the best "live-action" Batman. I said he was the best Batman, period. :)

Best live-action Batman was probably...hm...Keaton?

peterthx: bhcompy: Hamill is no longer the definitive Joker, but neither is Ledger. They're both excellent.
Conroy is the definitive Batman in the spirit of the comic, though West definitely owns his own Batman better than any other Batman.

In summary, fark you

And fark you if you're moronic enough to compare a live action performance to someone in a recording booth and drawn by an army of animators.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you. Yet I am.

peterthx: bhcompy: Hamill is no longer the definitive Joker, but neither is Ledger. They're both excellent.
Conroy is the definitive Batman in the spirit of the comic, though West definitely owns his own Batman better than any other Batman.

In summary, fark you

And fark you if you're moronic enough to compare a live action performance to someone in a recording booth and drawn by an army of animators.

So the modern Batman movies that are mostly CGI, with a guy performing in front of a green screen with the actual scenes and much of the action being animated by an army of CGI artists doesn't count?

FirstNationalBastard: peterthx: bhcompy: Hamill is no longer the definitive Joker, but neither is Ledger. They're both excellent.
Conroy is the definitive Batman in the spirit of the comic, though West definitely owns his own Batman better than any other Batman.

In summary, fark you

And fark you if you're moronic enough to compare a live action performance to someone in a recording booth and drawn by an army of animators.

So the modern Batman movies that are mostly CGI, with a guy performing in front of a green screen with the actual scenes and much of the action being animated by an army of CGI artists doesn't count?

Yeah, but he stands there in a rubber mask that hides his facial features, so I guess that puts him on top.

JAMES EARL JONES WAS NOT THE BEST VADER EVER! He was just a voice actor.

Micheal Keaton wasn't Batman, he was Bruce Wayne. The suit was Batman. They could've put any extra in that thing and we wouldn't have noticed. If Keaton wanted to do an action movie, he should've gotten into City Slickers as one of the side characters. That would've been more his speed.

As for Hogan playing Dr. Freeze, it would not have changed a thing. That was one rumor that really wasn't that far fetched. Both Hulk and Arnold would ruin that role. Oh wait, Arnold ruined the role so bad I don't think anyone would complain if they never brought that villian back.

lack of warmth: Micheal Keaton wasn't Batman, he was Bruce Wayne. The suit was Batman. They could've put any extra in that thing and we wouldn't have noticed. If Keaton wanted to do an action movie, he should've gotten into City Slickers as one of the side characters. That would've been more his speed.

As for Hogan playing Dr. Freeze, it would not have changed a thing. That was one rumor that really wasn't that far fetched. Both Hulk and Arnold would ruin that role. Oh wait, Arnold ruined the role so bad I don't think anyone would complain if they never brought that villian back.

Michael Ansara says: "I wish there were another way for me to say it. I cannot. I can only beg your forgiveness, and pray you hear me somehow, someplace... someplace where a warm hand waits for mine. "

I think my favorite rumor from The Dark Knight Rises is that Eddie Murphy would be playing The Riddler. I remember that casting choice be defended here on Fark.


Good times.

RexTalionis: Bale is the far superior Bruce Wayne. Keaton is a better Batman.

uh, you have that completely backwards.

Nolan is the first director to get Gordon right.
I like both Hingle and Caine as Alfred.
The current Bullock isn't dirty enough.

mechgreg: Tannhauser: I like the old Burton movies a bit better than the new ones, but that has to do with what a Batman movie should be to me.

A batman who has machine guns on his batmobile, and blows people up? Because that is what Burton's batman kind of was to me.

I know the scene in Batman Returns where he blows up the big guy is against the spirit of what Batman is, I know that Batman isn't supposed to smirk and blow people up.
But that's still one of my favorite scenes in any Batman movie. That scene is one of the main reasons I'd submit the mobsters and criminal element would be more intimidated by Keaton's Batman than Bale's. Even given Christen Bale's superior physicality. Keaton's Batman was crazier, lit dudes on fire with his car and was happy to stick a bomb in your belt and blow you to smithereens. Muderous psychos like mobsters would be more worried about a masked vigallante who offed them than a masked vigallante that kicked their arses, I think. They can get over being beaten up, harder to get past being lit on fire or blown up.


And while Keaton's Batmobile did sport the twin .30s, the vehicles in Nolan's films are pretty damn heavily armed-and Bale blows up a lot more stuff than Keaton did. Well, except dudes.

Your_Huckleberry: mechgreg: Tannhauser: I like the old Burton movies a bit better than the new ones, but that has to do with what a Batman movie should be to me.

A batman who has machine guns on his batmobile, and blows people up? Because that is what Burton's batman kind of was to me.

I know the scene in Batman Returns where he blows up the big guy is against the spirit of what Batman is, I know that Batman isn't supposed to smirk and blow people up.
But that's still one of my favorite scenes in any Batman movie. That scene is one of the main reasons I'd submit the mobsters and criminal element would be more intimidated by Keaton's Batman than Bale's. Even given Christen Bale's superior physicality. Keaton's Batman was crazier, lit dudes on fire with his car and was happy to stick a bomb in your belt and blow you to smithereens. Muderous psychos like mobsters would be more worried about a masked vigallante who offed them than a masked vigallante that kicked their arses, I think. They can get over being beaten up, harder to get past being lit on fire or blown up.


And while Keaton's Batmobile did sport the twin .30s, the vehicles in Nolan's films are pretty damn heavily armed-and Bale blows up a lot more stuff than Keaton did. Well, except dudes.

Know how I know you didn't read Knightfall?
/The novelization's surprisingly well done

FirstNationalBastard: peterthx: bhcompy: Hamill is no longer the definitive Joker, but neither is Ledger. They're both excellent.
Conroy is the definitive Batman in the spirit of the comic, though West definitely owns his own Batman better than any other Batman.

In summary, fark you

And fark you if you're moronic enough to compare a live action performance to someone in a recording booth and drawn by an army of animators.

So the modern Batman movies that are mostly CGI, with a guy performing in front of a green screen with the actual scenes and much of the action being animated by an army of CGI artists doesn't count?

What the hell Batman movies are you talking about? Mostly CGI? When you have to lie to make a point then it's probably not a very good one.

/expecting some stupid response that points out one or two CG shots in an otherwise 2 and a half hour live action movie, let's see if you're above that.