The obvious solution is to cut disability benefits in order to pay for tax cuts for billionaires.

Useless. Our population is increasing. If the numbers aren't described on a percentage of a population on a whole it is useless.

King Something: The obvious solution is to cut disability benefits in order to pay for tax cuts for billionaires.

Don't forget to repeal Obamacare so that insurance companies can resume refusing to sell health insurance to the disabled since they have pre-existing medical conditions.

You mean as the population ages?

An aging population that is working more hours with less vacation than anytime in history is breaking down?

This is shocking and horrifying, Clearly Fartbongo is to blame.

Breaking News: The Baby Boomers are getting old enough to get the entitlements they voted for themselves.

Well, I guess Sarah Palin is Governess of the American Empire and we automatically declare war on everything forever.

/dnrtfa
//no clicksfor callous dicks
///not even slashie donations

CNS is really pushing this one. Must be an emerging derping point.

I recently got out of the Navy. They require every enlisted man to attend a "Transition Assistance Program" class prior to being discharged. During this program, they thoroughly explain all the benefits available to veterans.

During the section covering disability benefits, our ever so helpful teacher explained how we might not think we're eligible for a disability claim, but we probably are. He showed us a long scar on his arm, and told us that painful scars acquired in the service qualify. He said he showed the doctor his scar, and when the doctor poked it, he said "Ow," the universal signal for pain. When the doctor asked him to rate the pain on a 1-10 scale, he called it a 10, because "pain is subjective, the doctor can't tell me I'm wrong if I say that's the most painful thing I can imagine."

That scar and a couple of others he had contributed 20% to his 100% disability rating.

I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

When do the right's bs talking points expire? You'd think the whole "lame stream media" bullshiat is wearing thing, as is "tax and spend liberals". How do republicans get away with so much underhanded crap without ever gaining one, just one label that sticks even when it ceases to be real?

The US population is at a record high too and it continues to rise!!! what a coincidence!

The Republican shills at the CBO strike again.

incendi: I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

There is no way to prevent fraud like that without cutting benefits from legitimate people. You have to accept error in the system, it's just a matter of deciding which type of error you prefer. Personally, I don't care if some service members get a little extra cash. Non of them are getting rich off of it, and the rest of their benefits are fairly meager anyways.

In principle, the number of people on disability should not be affected by the employment landscape, unless people are shooting their toes off to get disability. If you could be working if a job were offered to you, then you are not disabled. But I guess being on disability sounds better than being on "welfare."

Lost Thought 00: There is no way to prevent fraud like that without cutting benefits from legitimate people. You have to accept error in the system, it's just a matter of deciding which type of error you prefer. Personally, I don't care if some service members get a little extra cash. Non of them are getting rich off of it, and the rest of their benefits are fairly meager anyways.

Yes, but teaching that fraud is A-OK in the required transition course should be a firin'.

Tommy Moo: In principle, the number of people on disability should not be affected by the employment landscape, unless people are shooting their toes off to get disability. If you could be working if a job were offered to you, then you are not disabled. But I guess being on disability sounds better than being on "welfare."

When jobs are unavailable and you qualify for disability, it will affect it.

The baby boomers are aging too. More of them are going to become disabled.

incendi: Lost Thought 00: There is no way to prevent fraud like that without cutting benefits from legitimate people. You have to accept error in the system, it's just a matter of deciding which type of error you prefer. Personally, I don't care if some service members get a little extra cash. Non of them are getting rich off of it, and the rest of their benefits are fairly meager anyways.

Yes, but teaching that fraud is A-OK in the required transition course should be a firin'.

Meanwhile, JP Morgan "misplaces" several trillion dollars due to "best practices" of the financial industry. But a guy advising servicemen to have a bit more leeway with what they get compensated for when they were injured while serving is just an outrage.

Have to look at the big picture here.

Epoch_Zero: Meanwhile, JP Morgan "misplaces" several trillion dollars due to "best practices" of the financial industry. But a guy advising servicemen to have a bit more leeway with what they get compensated for when they were injured while serving is just an outrage.

Have to look at the big picture here.

Oh, don't worry, I have an appropriate level of outrage regarding that whole thing (and the LIBOR scandal as well), it just didn't seem pertinent to this thread.

I went to the CBO's website. They have a nice chart about the % of people on disability here vs other first world nations. Norway, Finland, Netherlands, Denmark, Poland, the UK and Ireland all have a larger % of their workforce on disability than us.

The real juicy part is that the % of workers that go on disability, as a whole has gone up. It has been going up since the start of this millennium at the rate of about 0.3% every five years.

incendi: I recently got out of the Navy. They require every enlisted man to attend a "Transition Assistance Program" class prior to being discharged. During this program, they thoroughly explain all the benefits available to veterans.

During the section covering disability benefits, our ever so helpful teacher explained how we might not think we're eligible for a disability claim, but we probably are. He showed us a long scar on his arm, and told us that painful scars acquired in the service qualify. He said he showed the doctor his scar, and when the doctor poked it, he said "Ow," the universal signal for pain. When the doctor asked him to rate the pain on a 1-10 scale, he called it a 10, because "pain is subjective, the doctor can't tell me I'm wrong if I say that's the most painful thing I can imagine."

That scar and a couple of others he had contributed 20% to his 100% disability rating.

I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

That guy aside, those briefings had to be created because of the tons of Vietnam vets that got screwed over by the VA in its early days. Vets didn't have any awareness of their benefits when they separated/retired, and they'd get to be in their old age and find a medical condition that was caused by something that happened during their service. The guys exposed to Agent Orange especially had many medical conditions traceable directly to their wartime experiences. My grandfather was exposed to asbestos on Navy ships in the 60s and 70s, leading to mesothelioma decades later. His death was traceable to the asbestos and my family was part of a class action suit as a result of it.

The way the system is right now, I could care less if a guy with a bad ankle gets 10-20%. If he ends up having something worse later on and the VA screws him out of his benefits due to lack of documentation or some other bureaucratic black hole, he at least has that 20%. Vets are very much prepositioned to not benefit from the VA benefits system, not the other way around.

incendi: Epoch_Zero: Meanwhile, JP Morgan "misplaces" several trillion dollars due to "best practices" of the financial industry. But a guy advising servicemen to have a bit more leeway with what they get compensated for when they were injured while serving is just an outrage.

Have to look at the big picture here.

Oh, don't worry, I have an appropriate level of outrage regarding that whole thing (and the LIBOR scandal as well), it just didn't seem pertinent to this thread.

So, you're not really all that mad over money, you're just upset on principle because they are teaching a certain ethically gray methodology when assessing what is disability?

incendi: Lost Thought 00: There is no way to prevent fraud like that without cutting benefits from legitimate people. You have to accept error in the system, it's just a matter of deciding which type of error you prefer. Personally, I don't care if some service members get a little extra cash. Non of them are getting rich off of it, and the rest of their benefits are fairly meager anyways.

Yes, but teaching that fraud is A-OK in the required transition course should be a firin'.

Yes, of course. You anecdote as described should not occur, but the program should encourage soldiers to take the full amount of benefits they are allowed to have and to not feel afraid of getting benefits for issues which may fall in the "grey area" right now, as those issues tend to become more serious as time goes on and are harder to claim the longer you wait.

incendi: Lost Thought 00: There is no way to prevent fraud like that without cutting benefits from legitimate people. You have to accept error in the system, it's just a matter of deciding which type of error you prefer. Personally, I don't care if some service members get a little extra cash. Non of them are getting rich off of it, and the rest of their benefits are fairly meager anyways.

Yes, but teaching that fraud is A-OK in the required transition course should be a firin'.

If this is really widespread and going on, we should blow that damn whistle and shame them up the ass. I'm certain the details of that program would outrage many people across the country including our grandstanding bloating congresspeople. I think there's a way to stop the system gaming without having to cut off benefits and that is stopping those classes from abusing the system.

incendi: I recently got out of the Navy. They require every enlisted man to attend a "Transition Assistance Program" class prior to being discharged. During this program, they thoroughly explain all the benefits available to veterans.

During the section covering disability benefits, our ever so helpful teacher explained how we might not think we're eligible for a disability claim, but we probably are. He showed us a long scar on his arm, and told us that painful scars acquired in the service qualify. He said he showed the doctor his scar, and when the doctor poked it, he said "Ow," the universal signal for pain. When the doctor asked him to rate the pain on a 1-10 scale, he called it a 10, because "pain is subjective, the doctor can't tell me I'm wrong if I say that's the most painful thing I can imagine."

That scar and a couple of others he had contributed 20% to his 100% disability rating.

I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

You'd think, what with "honor", "duty" and "integrity" being such major values within the armed forces, both the instructor and audience should know better.

// I know people are people, but still...
// also, I'd bet the majority of other instructors aren't so shady; and the majority in the audience aren't either

verbaltoxin: The way the system is right now, I could care less if a guy with a bad ankle gets 10-20%. If he ends up having something worse later on and the VA screws him out of his benefits due to lack of documentation or some other bureaucratic black hole, he at least has that 20%. Vets are very much prepositioned to not benefit from the VA benefits system, not the other way around.

To clarify, there was a lot of good done in the class as well. Just the bit covering disability turning into a how-to for fraud really didn't sit well with me. And that was in Norfolk, VA. Every E1-E6 being discharged from the largest naval base we've got is getting told that they should be abusing the system, because, hey, free money! That gums up the works for people with legitimate claims.

incendi: I recently got out of the Navy. They require every enlisted man to attend a "Transition Assistance Program" class prior to being discharged. During this program, they thoroughly explain all the benefits available to veterans.

During the section covering disability benefits, our ever so helpful teacher explained how we might not think we're eligible for a disability claim, but we probably are. He showed us a long scar on his arm, and told us that painful scars acquired in the service qualify. He said he showed the doctor his scar, and when the doctor poked it, he said "Ow," the universal signal for pain. When the doctor asked him to rate the pain on a 1-10 scale, he called it a 10, because "pain is subjective, the doctor can't tell me I'm wrong if I say that's the most painful thing I can imagine."

That scar and a couple of others he had contributed 20% to his 100% disability rating.

I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

Well if we're not going to pay for real mental health services to help them cope when they come back, that will have to do.

Epoch_Zero: So, you're not really all that mad over money, you're just upset on principle because they are teaching a certain ethically gray methodology when assessing what is disability?

Yes, pretty much. Also the money a little, because every now and then people suggest cutting veteran's benefits as part of larger spending cuts, and it's harder to justify keeping it when there's a bunch of jagoffs with basically fraudulent claims out there.

incendi: verbaltoxin: The way the system is right now, I could care less if a guy with a bad ankle gets 10-20%. If he ends up having something worse later on and the VA screws him out of his benefits due to lack of documentation or some other bureaucratic black hole, he at least has that 20%. Vets are very much prepositioned to not benefit from the VA benefits system, not the other way around.

To clarify, there was a lot of good done in the class as well. Just the bit covering disability turning into a how-to for fraud really didn't sit well with me. And that was in Norfolk, VA. Every E1-E6 being discharged from the largest naval base we've got is getting told that they should be abusing the system, because, hey, free money! That gums up the works for people with legitimate claims.

They're a small percentage. It's like saying the so-called welfare queens gum up the system. Sure, but that waste is no where near as widespread as made out. There are more vets coming in who need the benefits and are being stonewalled due to bad medical documentation, which is where it starts, because military medical care is not focused on treating a patient. They care about making you well enough to perform your duty. Army docs are the worst.

What's really to fear is the glut of vets coming out of the service from the Iraq/Afghanistan years. All those cases of injury and PTSD. Those men and women will glut the system, and they'll have their shoddy, poorly-documented Navy and Army casefiles in tow. All those times they were turned out due to "malingering" because an Army or Navy doc thought they were "faking it," to get out of work or "it wasn't that bad, take some Motrin and go back to work."

Before you get the Farkers here frothed up about VA abuse, shine a light or two on the rampant abuse in the military medical system. That's where it all starts. The military improperly treats service members and when those people are separated, they become the VA's problem.

King Something: The obvious solution is to cut disability benefits in order to pay for tax cuts for billionaires.

Republicans already cut out as much benefits as they can from veterans, what more do you want?

TimonC346: When do the right's bs talking points expire? You'd think the whole "lame stream media" bullshiat is wearing thing, as is "tax and spend liberals". How do republicans get away with so much underhanded crap without ever gaining one, just one label that sticks even when it ceases to be real?


Two words: mindless voter base

If they made the Cheetos aisle too narrow for mobility carts the number of "disabled" would fall.

Yeah the baby boomers are getting old. We've been hearing the warnings for like 2 decades now. Probably time to cut taxes though.

HotWingConspiracy: Yeah the baby boomers are getting old. We've been hearing the warnings for like 2 decades now. Probably time to cut taxes though.

That explains why suddenly estate taxes are The Worst Thing Ever (TM).

bartink: Tommy Moo: In principle, the number of people on disability should not be affected by the employment landscape, unless people are shooting their toes off to get disability. If you could be working if a job were offered to you, then you are not disabled. But I guess being on disability sounds better than being on "welfare."

When jobs are unavailable and you qualify for disability, it will affect it.

The baby boomers are aging too. More of them are going to become disabled.

This is why I voted for death panels. Sure, a lot of the elderly would have been turned into Soylent Green, but the important thing is that my taxes wouldn't be supporting unproductive members of society.

Cletus C.: If they made the Cheetos aisle too narrow for mobility carts the number of "disabled" would fall.

lol. I hereby vote for the notion that size of the aisle to access the food be inversely proportional to the amount of fat, sugar and garbage in the food. So if you want lettuce, you've got an aisle big enough to drive a mac truck down. If you want coca cola and ice cream, you need to be able to limbo under a spiky wall, jump a tiger pit, and squeeze down 2 foot wide hallway. That would be awesome. Also, I would feel like I really earned that Americone Dream.

this is obama sweeping more people into dependency so that they will vote for the nanny state solutions.

You know who else wanted to reduce the number of disabled people?

incendi: I recently got out of the Navy. They require every enlisted man to attend a "Transition Assistance Program" class prior to being discharged. During this program, they thoroughly explain all the benefits available to veterans.

During the section covering disability benefits, our ever so helpful teacher explained how we might not think we're eligible for a disability claim, but we probably are. He showed us a long scar on his arm, and told us that painful scars acquired in the service qualify. He said he showed the doctor his scar, and when the doctor poked it, he said "Ow," the universal signal for pain. When the doctor asked him to rate the pain on a 1-10 scale, he called it a 10, because "pain is subjective, the doctor can't tell me I'm wrong if I say that's the most painful thing I can imagine."

That scar and a couple of others he had contributed 20% to his 100% disability rating.

I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

We're training our own people to commit fraud. Ideocracy is here.

colon_pow: this is obama sweeping more people into dependency so that they will vote for the nanny state solutions.

Mitt Romney will ensure that the disabled are out on the street begging for change from the Blessed Job Creators where they belong.

my father is mentally ill and receives disability. The program was made for people like him, people with a genuine need that were struck down by things beyond their control. To see people frauding the system and taking bread from the mouths of the needy, well it makes my blood boil.

I feel that the subjective elements must be removed. Like with "stand your ground" non verifiable subjectivity of it is a huge flaw. Quantifiable and verifiable information must be obtained.

mystery diseases such as "fibromialgia" and the cornocopia of crap must be expunged.

bromah: my father is mentally ill and receives disability. The program was made for people like him, people with a genuine need that were struck down by things beyond their control. To see people frauding the system and taking bread from the mouths of the needy, well it makes my blood boil.

I feel that the subjective elements must be removed. Like with "stand your ground" non verifiable subjectivity of it is a huge flaw. Quantifiable and verifiable information must be obtained.

mystery diseases such as "fibromialgia" and the cornocopia of crap must be expunged.

Uhh, you understand that your father's mental disability is probably largely subjective as well, don't you?

West Virginia went through the same thing: Jobs went away, so those who could pull it off went on disability. Then, everyone got hooked on Oxycontin.

As West Virginia goes, so goes the nation...

colon_pow: this is obama sweeping more people into dependency so that they will vote for the nanny state solutions.

Obama is disabling people? What a monster.

incendi: Yes, pretty much.

Just clarifying for my uncaffienated brainmush.

incendi: because every now and then people suggest cutting veteran's benefits as part of larger spending cuts, and it's harder to justify keeping it when there's a bunch of jagoffs with basically fraudulent claims out there.

I can see that.

It's almost as if the Baby Boomers, the largest population bubble the U.S. has ever had, is begining to age. These trends have been predicted for decades, but conservatives are too ignorant to realize that it has little to nothing to do with policy.

Permanent warfare has a way of doing that.

Wow, it's almost like we just sent a million soldiers ver the last 10 years to the other side of the world to fight in two concurrent wars. I'm sure that's just a coinkydink, though.

verbaltoxin: incendi: I recently got out of the Navy. They require every enlisted man to attend a "Transition Assistance Program" class prior to being discharged. During this program, they thoroughly explain all the benefits available to veterans.

During the section covering disability benefits, our ever so helpful teacher explained how we might not think we're eligible for a disability claim, but we probably are. He showed us a long scar on his arm, and told us that painful scars acquired in the service qualify. He said he showed the doctor his scar, and when the doctor poked it, he said "Ow," the universal signal for pain. When the doctor asked him to rate the pain on a 1-10 scale, he called it a 10, because "pain is subjective, the doctor can't tell me I'm wrong if I say that's the most painful thing I can imagine."

That scar and a couple of others he had contributed 20% to his 100% disability rating.

I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

That guy aside, those briefings had to be created because of the tons of Vietnam vets that got screwed over by the VA in its early days. Vets didn't have any awareness of their benefits when they separated/retired, and they'd get to be in their old age and find a medical condition that was caused by something that happened during their service. The guys exposed to Agent Orange especially had many medical conditions traceable directly to their wartime experiences. My grandfather was exposed to asbestos on Navy ships in the 60s and 70s, leading to mesothelioma decades later. His death was traceable to the asbestos and my family was part of a class action suit as a result of it.

The way the system is right now, I could care less if a guy with a bad ankle gets 10-20%. If he ends up having something worse later on and the VA screws him out of his benefits due to lack of documentation or some other bureaucratic black hole, he at least has that 20%. Vets are very much prepositioned to not benefit from the VA benefits system, not the other way around.

My father was exposed to Agent Orange while serving in Vietnam, he refused to consider it a cause for his debilitating illness at age 50.

mcreadyblue: verbaltoxin: incendi: I recently got out of the Navy. They require every enlisted man to attend a "Transition Assistance Program" class prior to being discharged. During this program, they thoroughly explain all the benefits available to veterans.

During the section covering disability benefits, our ever so helpful teacher explained how we might not think we're eligible for a disability claim, but we probably are. He showed us a long scar on his arm, and told us that painful scars acquired in the service qualify. He said he showed the doctor his scar, and when the doctor poked it, he said "Ow," the universal signal for pain. When the doctor asked him to rate the pain on a 1-10 scale, he called it a 10, because "pain is subjective, the doctor can't tell me I'm wrong if I say that's the most painful thing I can imagine."

That scar and a couple of others he had contributed 20% to his 100% disability rating.

I'm all for legitimate disability benefits, but shiat like that, and the fact that it's being taught to people as part of a required class prior to being discharged from military service, really irks me.

That guy aside, those briefings had to be created because of the tons of Vietnam vets that got screwed over by the VA in its early days. Vets didn't have any awareness of their benefits when they separated/retired, and they'd get to be in their old age and find a medical condition that was caused by something that happened during their service. The guys exposed to Agent Orange especially had many medical conditions traceable directly to their wartime experiences. My grandfather was exposed to asbestos on Navy ships in the 60s and 70s, leading to mesothelioma decades later. His death was traceable to the asbestos and my family was part of a class action suit as a result of it.

The way the system is right now, I could care less if a guy with a bad ankle gets 10-20%. If he ends up having something worse later on and the VA screws him out of his benefits due to lac ...

I feel sorry for your father regardless. He should've checked into it. There's a chance it was due to Agent Orange. I know someone who has well exceeded the max disability rate because of Orange and other service-related issues. At times I'm amazed the old fart's still alive.

verbaltoxin: incendi: verbaltoxin: The way the system is right now, I could care less if a guy with a bad ankle gets 10-20%. If he ends up having something worse later on and the VA screws him out of his benefits due to lack of documentation or some other bureaucratic black hole, he at least has that 20%. Vets are very much prepositioned to not benefit from the VA benefits system, not the other way around.

To clarify, there was a lot of good done in the class as well. Just the bit covering disability turning into a how-to for fraud really didn't sit well with me. And that was in Norfolk, VA. Every E1-E6 being discharged from the largest naval base we've got is getting told that they should be abusing the system, because, hey, free money! That gums up the works for people with legitimate claims.

They're a small percentage. It's like saying the so-called welfare queens gum up the system. Sure, but that waste is no where near as widespread as made out. There are more vets coming in who need the benefits and are being stonewalled due to bad medical documentation, which is where it starts, because military medical care is not focused on treating a patient. They care about making you well enough to perform your duty. Army docs are the worst.

What's really to fear is the glut of vets coming out of the service from the Iraq/Afghanistan years. All those cases of injury and PTSD. Those men and women will glut the system, and they'll have their shoddy, poorly-documented Navy and Army casefiles in tow. All those times they were turned out due to "malingering" because an Army or Navy doc thought they were "faking it," to get out of work or "it wasn't that bad, take some Motrin and go back to work."

Before you get the Farkers here frothed up about VA abuse, shine a light or two on the rampant abuse in the military medical system. That's where it all starts. The military improperly treats service members and when those people are separated, they become the VA's problem.

Pretty much. I got KTFO by a combative patient and my unit's response was "Eh, sleep it off, be at work early tomorrow," I did, and the next day I realized I couldn't read. Oh, I could see the words just fine, I could sound them out but I just couldn't place meaning to them. Then I started having crippling migraines and because my unit was understaffed they made me go out and sit in an FLA when my head was exploding and I couldn't see out of half of each eye.

Same thing with my knee. I had chronic knee problems starting in AIT, and the response every time I went in was "Suck it up, take some ibuprofen." When I started to fail PT tests due to my knee locking up, they told me I just needed to run more. "You're skinny! You should be able to run. You're just using your knee as an excuse." And mind you, this was a medical unit so they should have known goddamn better.

Now I get 80% disability for a combination of factors. Do I think I deserve all of it? Probably not, there are certainly people worse off who get less. But all my issues could have been resolved much easier day 1 if the medics in my unit had actually given a crap.