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   America should charge bravely over the fiscal cliff like Wile E. Coyote chasing the road runner

13 Nov 2012 08:39 AM   |   6148 clicks   |   Time
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Raharu     
DO IT GOP!

13 Nov 2012 08:14 AM
The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves     
As long as we don't look down it will be OK.

13 Nov 2012 08:41 AM
Disposable Rob     
Just don't look down and you'll be alright.

13 Nov 2012 08:41 AM
cfletch13     
OR.... you could just reform the tax code without crashing the economy into the ground, without defaulting on debt payments, and without making your interest burden higher.

13 Nov 2012 08:45 AM
SkunkWerks     
/WilhelmScream

13 Nov 2012 08:45 AM
bunner     
2.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size

13 Nov 2012 08:45 AM
phrawgh     
imprint.printmag.comView Full Size

13 Nov 2012 08:46 AM
JackieRabbit     
Riiiiiggghhhht....

13 Nov 2012 08:54 AM
JonnyG     
How easy would it be to fix all the world's financial problems? Reset everything to zero across the board. That way, profitable ventures will continue and failing ventures will fail. Rich people who deserve to be rich will become rich again. It'll all work out, I swear.

13 Nov 2012 08:55 AM
iheartscotch     
Meep meep!!

13 Nov 2012 08:56 AM
Sunrazor     
Geronimo!

Geronimo!

Me!

13 Nov 2012 08:57 AM
SkunkWerks     

JonnyG: Reset everything to zero across the board.


img293.imageshack.usView Full Size

13 Nov 2012 08:58 AM
bunner     

JonnyG: How easy would it be to fix all the world's financial problems? Reset everything to zero across the board. That way, profitable ventures will continue and failing ventures will fail. Rich people who deserve to be rich will become rich again. It'll all work out, I swear.


Its' called jubilee and it's pretty much the only thing left to do that isn't band aids, bullsh*t and propping up the con.

13 Nov 2012 08:59 AM
bunner     
It's time to shake the etch a sketch, you fat bastards. And there's nothing on earth, including all that debt you're holding, that will save the nation you mooch off of if you don't.

13 Nov 2012 09:01 AM
david_gaithersburg     
The important thing here is that Buffet and all of Obama's hedge fund friends will get to keep their 15% tax rate on investments held for milliseconds.

13 Nov 2012 09:05 AM
HeadLever     

cfletch13: OR.... you could just reform the tax code without crashing the economy into the ground, without defaulting on debt payments, and without making your interest burden higher.


While tax reform is part of the solution, it is not going to get us there alone. Eliminating the tax cuts for the rich will produce about an estimated $80Billion in extra revenue per year. Remember, our deficit is $1.116 Trillion. With this extra revenue it would be $1.036Trillion. An improvement, yes; but small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

13 Nov 2012 09:06 AM
tommyl66     
In the world on the other side of the fiscal cliff, Democrats and Republicans will have no choice but to work together on tax cuts that will be fairer to the middle class and encourage economic growth.

And what color will the sky be in this world?

/We may get some table scraps, but the game will still be rigged in favor of the rich
//Until we flip the board over, sending hotels, boots and Scottish terriers flying all over the place
///I get to be banker next time, Grandpa!

13 Nov 2012 09:07 AM
Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich     

HeadLever: While tax reform is part of the solution, it is not going to get us there alone. Eliminating the tax cuts for the rich will produce about an estimated $80Billion in extra revenue per year. Remember, our deficit is $1.116 Trillion. With this extra revenue it would be $1.036Trillion. An improvement, yes; but small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.


So he suggests raising the capital gains tax rate (and it should be taxed at the same rate as labor), and you give numbers on the elimination of the Bush tax cuts?

Math Fail.

13 Nov 2012 09:12 AM
jaybeezey     

HeadLever: cfletch13: OR.... you could just reform the tax code without crashing the economy into the ground, without defaulting on debt payments, and without making your interest burden higher.

While tax reform is part of the solution, it is not going to get us there alone. Eliminating the tax cuts for the rich will produce about an estimated $80Billion in extra revenue per year. Remember, our deficit is $1.116 Trillion. With this extra revenue it would be $1.036Trillion. An improvement, yes; but small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.


BUT MAKING THE RICH FAT CATS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING!

13 Nov 2012 09:13 AM
Debeo Summa Credo     

david_gaithersburg: The important thing here is that Buffet and all of Obama's hedge fund friends will get to keep their 15% tax rate on investments held for milliseconds.


You do realize that the 15% rate applies only to investments held for at least a year, right?

13 Nov 2012 09:14 AM
bunner     

jaybeezey: BUT MAKING THE RICH FAT CATS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING!


It won't hurt.

13 Nov 2012 09:15 AM
HeadLever     

bunner: JonnyG: How easy would it be to fix all the world's financial problems? Reset everything to zero across the board. That way, profitable ventures will continue and failing ventures will fail. Rich people who deserve to be rich will become rich again. It'll all work out, I swear.

Its' called jubilee and it's pretty much the only thing left to do that isn't band aids, bullsh*t and propping up the con.


Bzzzt. wrong. When you are racking up trillion dollar deficits every year and then default on said debt, you are not going to be suddenly living in a world of rainbows and unicorns. You previous debtors are going to refuse to finance you debt any longer since they got burned and you ability to continue to issue those trillion dollars in deficts/debt are going to be VERY costly.

I can't even imagine what interest rates would be in this type of secenairo.

13 Nov 2012 09:15 AM
Thunderpipes     
We do it now or we dot it much, much harder later on.

We really need a shock to get back to reality. Libs don't understand what interest is and that is scary.

350 billion in interest payments on the debt right now. Will be 500 billion or so at the end of Obama's second term. From there is increases almost exponentially. These are CBO optimistic numbers as well, not scaredy cat stuff.

Would liberals take out a mortgage knowing the principal would grow 8-10% a year, while their salary can't even make the interest payments to begin with? That is how batcrap retarded this country is acting under Democratic rule. You cannot defend or even argue that, so you just attack anyone for pointing it out. Dumb.

13 Nov 2012 09:16 AM
bunner     

HeadLever: Bzzzt. wrong


Not quite.

HeadLever: When you are racking up trillion dollar deficits every year and then default on said debt, you are not going to be suddenly living in a world of rainbows and unicorns.


So?

HeadLever: You previous debtors are going to refuse to finance you debt any longer since they got burned and you ability to continue to issue those trillion dollars in deficts/debt are going to be VERY costly.


The point is you stop pretending that trying to operate under a debt of that scale is feasible.

HeadLever: I can't even imagine what interest rates would be in this type of secenairo.


My guess is pretty damn low since the malarkey farmers whose only product is debt will need income.

13 Nov 2012 09:20 AM
Debeo Summa Credo     
Although I disagree with alot of the liberal DERP spread through TFA, I agree with the headline and general premise.

We should just let all the tax cuts lapse. It will affect growth in the short term, however we need revenues to fix out fiscal situation and at some point we need to stop kicking the can down the road. Eliminating all the tax cuts will generate 5x the revenue of just eliminating the cuts for the top. What's wrong with Clinton era rates?

Do it Obama. All you have to do is sit on your ass and we can undo these irresponsible cuts.

13 Nov 2012 09:20 AM
Debeo Summa Credo     

bunner: HeadLever: Bzzzt. wrong

Not quite.

HeadLever: When you are racking up trillion dollar deficits every year and then default on said debt, you are not going to be suddenly living in a world of rainbows and unicorns.

So?

HeadLever: You previous debtors are going to refuse to finance you debt any longer since they got burned and you ability to continue to issue those trillion dollars in deficts/debt are going to be VERY costly.

The point is you stop pretending that trying to operate under a debt of that scale is feasible.

HeadLever: I can't even imagine what interest rates would be in this type of secenairo.

My guess is pretty damn low since the malarkey farmers whose only product is debt will need income.


Whew. Wow. This is what farklibs ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

13 Nov 2012 09:21 AM
Zeb Hesselgresser     

Thunderpipes: We do it now or we dot it much, much harder later on.

We really need a shock to get back to reality. Libs don't understand what interest is and that is scary.

350 billion in interest payments on the debt right now. Will be 500 billion or so at the end of Obama's second term. From there is increases almost exponentially. These are CBO optimistic numbers as well, not scaredy cat stuff.

Would liberals take out a mortgage knowing the principal would grow 8-10% a year, while their salary can't even make the interest payments to begin with? That is how batcrap retarded this country is acting under Democratic rule. You cannot defend or even argue that, so you just attack anyone for pointing it out. Dumb.


pppppfffffffffttttttttttt, Preezy told me he and Geithner Krugman have a secret plan.

13 Nov 2012 09:22 AM
david_gaithersburg     

Debeo Summa Credo: david_gaithersburg: The important thing here is that Buffet and all of Obama's hedge fund friends will get to keep their 15% tax rate on investments held for milliseconds.

You do realize that the 15% rate applies only to investments held for at least a year, right?


.
You are thinking of the rule that applies to you and me. There is a loophole that allow hedge funds and investment companies to declare the 15% rate for all investments, so high frequency traders like Buffet enjoy the 15% rate all of the time. The current administration refuses to touch this, instead they babel on about how rich you and I are and how you and I must pay more. Closing that loophole on Obama's buddies would raise a whole lot of cash, and possibly even slow down the Buffets and Goldman's of the world. Google "15 capital gains tax for hedge funds"

13 Nov 2012 09:23 AM
HeadLever     

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: So he suggests raising the capital gains tax rate


That number is even less significant. Raising the capital gains tax from 15 to 20 percent (Obama's plan) will raise an additional $3.6 billion per year. If the Bush tax cuts were small potatoes, this is small peas. Combine the two items an you have now cut our deficit to $1.033Trillion.

It is amusing to watch the partisan hacks flail over the notion that if we could just only tax the rich, all of our debt problems would go away.

/Math fail indeed

13 Nov 2012 09:24 AM
the_immoral_minority     
We just blew thru 2,400 Billion in debt in 15 months, getting 80 Billion from not renewing the Bush cuts isn't going to do squat

t.qkme.meView Full Size

13 Nov 2012 09:24 AM
bunner     

Zeb Hesselgresser: Democratic rule.


You guys... don't know how this - "America" thing works, do you?

13 Nov 2012 09:25 AM
david_gaithersburg     

Debeo Summa Credo: david_gaithersburg: The important thing here is that Buffet and all of Obama's hedge fund friends will get to keep their 15% tax rate on investments held for milliseconds.

You do realize that the 15% rate applies only to investments held for at least a year, right?


.
And when Buffet goes on about raising taxes take careful note that he never states that the "carried interest" loophole should be eliminated, that would affect him. Buffet is one of the most evil men on the planet, and Obama has sent billions of our tax dollars his way via funds for the railroad he purchased minutes after Obama was elected in 2008. Yeah, the media did everything in their power to avoid these stories.

13 Nov 2012 09:28 AM
HeadLever     

bunner: So?


If you can't get your finances in order, It is another band aid solution. Wasn't that you point?

The point is you stop pretending that trying to operate under a debt of that scale is feasible.

You mean actions have consequences? Oh, Lawd! Maybe we should try to do something about it.

My guess is pretty damn low since the malarkey farmers whose only product is debt will need income.

Want to know how I know that you have no idea of what you are talking about? Wow. That is pretty dumb for even the Fark Hive-Mind

13 Nov 2012 09:28 AM
bunner     

HeadLever: Want to know how I know that you have no idea of what you are talking about? - Fark Hive-Mind


Irony abounds. Troll more, it's early and I may just entertain you.

13 Nov 2012 09:30 AM
bunner     
Anybody who thinks that we can SOMEHOW leave things ESSENTIALLY THE SAME as far as debt, capital and taxes and JUST CHUG ALONG is a hell of a lot more deluded then the people calling for a reboot. Back up from the tree bark a few feet and you will notice that there is a forest and large areas of it are ablaze.

13 Nov 2012 09:33 AM
cubic_spleen     

bunner: Zeb Hesselgresser: Democratic rule.

You guys... don't know how this - "America" thing works, do you?


Favorited, just for that one line.

13 Nov 2012 09:36 AM
Zeb Hesselgresser     

bunner: Zeb Hesselgresser: Democratic rule.

You guys... don't know how this - "America" Greece thing works, do you?


13 Nov 2012 09:37 AM
HeadLever     

bunner: Anybody who thinks that we can SOMEHOW leave things ESSENTIALLY THE SAME as far as debt, capital and taxes and JUST CHUG ALONG is a hell of a lot more deluded then the people calling for a reboot.


What you don't get is that a reboot is a default on existing debt obligations. How folks will get burned (defaulted on) and then just turn around and continue to invest in US debt instruments without demanding sky high return on any investment is beyond any rational logic. Especially if said reboot does not contain any mechanism to get our fiscal house in order.

Defaulting our our debt is one of the most stupid things you could do. Why do you think Greece is trying so hard to avoid it?

13 Nov 2012 09:38 AM
bunner     

HeadLever: Defaulting our our debt is one of the most stupid things you could do.


I think we have a different idea of "reboot".

13 Nov 2012 09:39 AM
HeadLever     

bunner: HeadLever: Defaulting our our debt is one of the most stupid things you could do.

I think we have a different idea of "reboot".


If you were not talking about wiping out the debt (shaking the ecth-a-sketch) as you put it, what are you talking about?

13 Nov 2012 09:47 AM
LovingTeacher     

Thunderpipes: We do it now or we dot it much, much harder later on.

We really need a shock to get back to reality. Libs don't understand what interest is and that is scary.

350 billion in interest payments on the debt right now. Will be 500 billion or so at the end of Obama's second term. From there is increases almost exponentially. These are CBO optimistic numbers as well, not scaredy cat stuff.

Would liberals take out a mortgage knowing the principal would grow 8-10% a year, while their salary can't even make the interest payments to begin with? That is how batcrap retarded this country is acting under Democratic rule. You cannot defend or even argue that, so you just attack anyone for pointing it out. Dumb.


The only arguments I have with what you said are bolded.
1. it is increasing exponentially, that's what interest does.
2. not all liberals are fiscally irresposible, there are those of us who want to get this thing under control
3. This country has acted the same "batcrap retarded" way under both parties since I started paying attention when Ronnie was prez, Bush II was no fiscally restrained, small government, not trampling people's constitutional rights conservative. So you can just stop with the partisanship if you want to get anything done.

13 Nov 2012 09:47 AM
Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich     

HeadLever: It is amusing to watch the partisan hacks flail over the notion that if we could just only tax the rich, all of our debt problems would go away.


So...I point out you use the wrong set of numbers, and from that you can infer my feelings on raising revenue versus decreasing spending?

areyouawizard.jpg

13 Nov 2012 09:47 AM
ghall3     

HeadLever: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: So he suggests raising the capital gains tax rate

That number is even less significant. Raising the capital gains tax from 15 to 20 percent (Obama's plan) will raise an additional $3.6 billion per year. If the Bush tax cuts were small potatoes, this is small peas. Combine the two items an you have now cut our deficit to $1.033Trillion.

It is amusing to watch the partisan hacks flail over the notion that if we could just only tax the rich, all of our debt problems would go away.

/Math fail indeed


We need to start somewhere...

13 Nov 2012 09:50 AM
ManRay     
Fiscal cliff? We need every dime we can get our hands on. It's already spent.

We need to raise taxes on everyone by 40% to get the books balanced.

13 Nov 2012 09:50 AM
Zeb Hesselgresser     

ManRay: Fiscal cliff? We need every dime we can get our hands on. It's already spent.

We need to raise taxes on everyone by 40% to get the books balanced.


Approved, please proceed.

13 Nov 2012 09:53 AM
Feral_and_Preposterous     

bunner: Anybody who thinks that we can SOMEHOW leave things ESSENTIALLY THE SAME as far as debt, capital and taxes and JUST CHUG ALONG is a hell of a lot more deluded then the people calling for a reboot. Back up from the tree bark a few feet and you will notice that there is a forest and large areas of it are ablaze.


I was starting to agree with you--than I lost focus.

13 Nov 2012 09:53 AM
Debeo Summa Credo     

david_gaithersburg: Debeo Summa Credo: david_gaithersburg: The important thing here is that Buffet and all of Obama's hedge fund friends will get to keep their 15% tax rate on investments held for milliseconds.

You do realize that the 15% rate applies only to investments held for at least a year, right?

.
You are thinking of the rule that applies to you and me. There is a loophole that allow hedge funds and investment companies to declare the 15% rate for all investments, so high frequency traders like Buffet enjoy the 15% rate all of the time. The current administration refuses to touch this, instead they babel on about how rich you and I are and how you and I must pay more. Closing that loophole on Obama's buddies would raise a whole lot of cash, and possibly even slow down the Buffets and Goldman's of the world. Google "15 capital gains tax for hedge funds"


You are wrong, or at least I'm 99% sure you are wrong. Please provide any citations that support your claims... it will help me tell you why your views/the source are incorrect or, in the remote possibility that I'm wrong, you'll see my shocked face and get an apology.

The 'carried interest' loophole essentially allows fund managers to be taxed on their performance fees on investment funds, in the same manner that the investors gains on the underlying investments are taxed. It is much more common in PE funds, where by nature investments are held for long periods of time (5-7 years).

Example: A fund manager may only put in $1 and get investors to contribute $99 to a fund that makes an investment. Upon realization of a gain on that investment (Say $50), the PE manager not only gets the returns on his dollar (50 cents) but also frequently 20% of the gains of his investors ($9.90). To the extent the gain qualifies for capital gains (held for longer than one year), the carried interest loophole allows the manager to not only treat the 50 cents as capital gains but also the $9.90.

If the gains are short term in nature, the investors and the manager pay ordinary tax rates on all income. High frequency traders and hedge funds that hold stocks for less than one year (or buy derivatives or go short, gains on which never qualify for cap gains taxes), pay ordinary income tax rates.

I agree that the carried interest loophole should be closed, as the $9.90 in the previous example seems more to me to be fee income than capital gains, but your understanding of it is flawed I think.

Also, Warren Buffet is the furthest thing from a high frequency trader you can find.

13 Nov 2012 09:53 AM
dsmith42     

david_gaithersburg: Debeo Summa Credo: david_gaithersburg: The important thing here is that Buffet and all of Obama's hedge fund friends will get to keep their 15% tax rate on investments held for milliseconds.

You do realize that the 15% rate applies only to investments held for at least a year, right?

.
And when Buffet goes on about raising taxes take careful note that he never states that the "carried interest" loophole should be eliminated, that would affect him. Buffet is one of the most evil men on the planet, and Obama has sent billions of our tax dollars his way via funds for the railroad he purchased minutes after Obama was elected in 2008. Yeah, the media did everything in their power to avoid these stories.


Buffett does not use the carried interest loophole because he does not run a hedge fund or a private equity fund. You are thinking of somebody like John Paulson or Mitt Romney. Buffett does benefit from the lower dividend and long term capital gains rates, but he has explicitly called for those to be raised.

13 Nov 2012 09:54 AM
bunner     

HeadLever: If you were not talking about wiping out the debt (shaking the ecth-a-sketch) as you put it


Oh, but I am.

what are you talking about?

A very arduous process of creating a nationally internal spreadsheet of who owes what, to whom is it owed, under what sort of construct, how much of it is utter horsesh*t (derivatives), how much is collectable, and in what time frame, how much ins externally indexed. It gets the hogs out of the trough, the gamblers out of the machine shop and the bums off the plush. And it would hurt like hell for about a year after. Then it gets way better and stays that way due to some rather draconian and PITA regulations what will actually lift all most boats. Boats don't float in trickle down. Trickle down is Bush cutting everybody a check for just enough for a New TeeVee, a Blackberry and a Red Lobster dinner. This is sitting down with a calculator and cutting the sh*t. And heads will roll. but at least only figuratively.

13 Nov 2012 09:55 AM
bunner     

Feral_and_Preposterous: than I lost focus.


'k.

13 Nov 2012 09:56 AM
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