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   So Texas really CAN secede? Kinda sorta maybe?

15 Nov 2012 06:37 AM   |   18620 clicks   |   Slate
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fnorgby     
No.

There's a Supreme Court case from the post-Civil War era that addressed whether Texas has a right to secede. SCOTUS said, basically, that the Union is an all-or-nothing deal. (Texas v White, 74 U.S. 700 (1868))

The issue, specifically: Texas had a bunch of US-issued bearer bonds, which it continued to sell after secession. After the Civil War, some officials of the pre-secession TX government sued to recover the money raised from those bonds. The post-war TX government didn't want to give up the money -- it claimed that the sales during the Civil War were legit, because the provisional government was the legitimate government of TX during the secession years.

SCOTUS said no. The provisional government had no legitimacy, because a state -- ANY state, TX or not -- cannot secede. The sales were not legitmate.

15 Nov 2012 01:20 AM
SpartacusHobbs     
The strategy cited in TFA is interesting, but I suspect the results of the state legislature attempting to exercise its rights to split Texas into five states would be something other than the US government saying GTFO.

/gerrymandering battle royale, to start with

15 Nov 2012 01:46 AM
dameron    [TotalFark]  
Texas should pursue this forcefully!

The United States has an unblemished record of honoring its treaties and obligations from the 19th century and this should be no different.

15 Nov 2012 01:50 AM
Summoner101     
If only

15 Nov 2012 06:40 AM
AverageAmericanGuy    [TotalFark]  
We must rid our nation of pariah states. Texas is not that pariah.

I'm looking at you, New Hampshire...

15 Nov 2012 06:40 AM
elementalogic     
4.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size

15 Nov 2012 06:42 AM
Whole Wheat     
imokaywiththis.jpg

Really, please let them at your earliest convenience.

15 Nov 2012 06:43 AM
Creoena     
On behalf of the rest of the United States, please let this be so

15 Nov 2012 06:44 AM
jso2897     
This is silly. No state is going to seriously try to secede in our lifetimes. End of subject.

15 Nov 2012 06:47 AM
Honest Bender    [TotalFark]  
Don't tease me...

On the serious side, as a californian, I've often casually wondered about our state going rogue.

15 Nov 2012 06:47 AM
AverageAmericanGuy    [TotalFark]  

Honest Bender: Don't tease me...

On the serious side, as a californian, I've often casually wondered about our state going rogue.


You can go Stone. Washington and Oregon will be going Rogue.

15 Nov 2012 06:48 AM
tommyl66     
Texas going independent? That's crazy talk! Almost as crazy as West Virginia going to the Big 12.

/College football on the main page? Really?

15 Nov 2012 06:49 AM
BronyMedic     
New rule for Journalists: If the answer to your headline's question-format subject can be phrased simply as "No.", don't write it as a question.

Of course, the people of Texas could actually form an army of their own and "secede". To be quite frank, any group could do so and claim to secede, and defy the will of the Local, State, and Federal Government. However, it'd be just as legitimate as if I crowned myself the Prince of Equestria, and went around issuing official decrees based upon that. And any murder, mayhem, and crime they committed would be treated exactly thus. Murder, mayhem, and crime.

Only in this case, it'd involve unleashing the United States Military on the American people. And they think the civil authorities are arbitrary and dictatorial?

On second thought, Prince of Equestria don't sound half bad.

i.imgur.comView Full Size

15 Nov 2012 06:49 AM
Xai     
Even if it could, Do you really think a supermajority of voters (this would have to include 100% republicans and at least some democrats) would vote to secede? No. This is yet another baby-kicking-toys-out-of-crib move by whiny republicans upset that democracy actually works.

15 Nov 2012 06:49 AM
SgtArkie     

AverageAmericanGuy: We must rid our nation of pariah states. Texas is not that pariah.

I'm looking at you, New Hampshire...



I say the US should consist of ONLY pariah states, since a majority of americans voted for the pariah party. I wonder how long it would last if all productive people went Galt

15 Nov 2012 06:54 AM
BronyMedic     

SgtArkie: I wonder how long it would last if all productive people went Galt


You mean if a source of perpetual energy in violation of the laws of thermodynamics existed, right? That's what you meant to say? Because that's the whole MacGuffin that makes the world of Atlas Shrugged even remotely plausible, and not an exercise in purely capitalistic mental masturbation.

15 Nov 2012 06:55 AM
MayoSlather     
It's sad the fine people in Austin have to endure the rest of the state.

15 Nov 2012 06:58 AM
bump     
I've been through San Antonio, so this would be sad as it's beautiful.

I've been through New Braunfels, so this would be no big loss.

But I've heard good things about Austin, so there's maybe some salvageability potential here....

15 Nov 2012 06:59 AM
The Third Man     
The problem with the "division clause" mentioned in the article, which would allow Texas to break into five stated: Congress must approve any new states of the union ( just like they have to approve Puerto Rico). End of that story.

15 Nov 2012 06:59 AM
middleoftheday    [TotalFark]  

Creoena: On behalf of the rest of the United States, please let this be so


Please, by all means, explain why you think this affects you.

15 Nov 2012 06:59 AM
indylaw     
What's the worst that can happen? It's not as if the South suffered a 150 year dark age.

15 Nov 2012 07:00 AM
Point02GPA    [TotalFark]  
I'm still down with The Whiskey Rebellion.

15 Nov 2012 07:00 AM
MayoBoy     
Because it worked out so well the last time you tried.

15 Nov 2012 07:03 AM
I Am The Bishop Of East Anglia     
I think the secessionistas may be a bit surprised once their cities, with most of the wealth of their new nations, start seceding from the recently-seceded states.

If I remember the Ken Burns documentary correctly, this was on track to happen to the Confederacy at the end of the Civil War.

/lines on a map mean nothin', man

15 Nov 2012 07:04 AM
I Am The Bishop Of East Anglia     

The Third Man: The problem with the "division clause" mentioned in the article, which would allow Texas to break into five stated: Congress must approve any new states of the union ( just like they have to approve Puerto Rico). End of that story.


I would have thought the whole seceding thing would abrogate any pre-existing agreement with the US ab initio. Texas did get itself a brand new constitution during Reconstruction and I'm fairly certain the Northern writers of that constitution were alert enough to add a "no funny ideas, losers!" clause.

15 Nov 2012 07:10 AM
sycraft     
No they can't. The issue was settled with the Civil War. The Civil War was NOT fought over slavery. The abolition of slavery was one of the issues that lead to the secession of the confederate states, but it wasn't what the war was over. The war was over the question of if union membership was permanent. The confederate states wanted to leave. Had the US chosen to allow them to, or had they won the war, then secession would be something states could do. You could leave the union just as you could join it. However the US decided that no, once you just the union, membership is permanent, there's no leaving, and they fought and won a war over it.

So no, it isn't happening. Texas can biatch all they like, the issue was settled long ago. When you become a state, it is forever. The federal government WILL go to war over it.

15 Nov 2012 07:11 AM
DrPainMD     
There's a legal principle (I forget what it's called) that says that any legislative act can be modified or repealed by any future legislature, so, yes, states can secede.

15 Nov 2012 07:11 AM
abhorrent1     
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. And don't come looking for help next time you have wild fires or a hurricane. You want to be on your own? Then be on your own.

15 Nov 2012 07:12 AM
SgtArkie     

BronyMedic: SgtArkie: I wonder how long it would last if all productive people went Galt

You mean if a source of perpetual energy in violation of the laws of thermodynamics existed, right? That's what you meant to say? Because that's the whole MacGuffin that makes the world of Atlas Shrugged even remotely plausible, and not an exercise in purely capitalistic mental masturbation.


no, I mean the productive people leave and do their own thing, let you robbers have 100% of nothing.

15 Nov 2012 07:17 AM
BronyMedic     

DrPainMD: There's a legal principle (I forget what it's called) that says that any legislative act can be modified or repealed by any future legislature, so, yes, states can secede.


No, they can't. As already mentioned before, the right for states to secede from the United States was settled after the Civil War, and by subsequent landmark SCOTUS cases. While State and Local governments and their citizens could indeed claim to secede, and begin to ignore the laws and orders of the United States Government, they would have no legitimacy under US or international law, and what WOULD happen is that the conspirators would be considered criminals.

If it were potentially large enough, it could involve the declaration of Martial law, especially under a Homeland Security Presidential Directive, and the use of the United States military to resume the enforcement of United States law and restore the legitimacy of the Government.

At that point, all bets are off, and any notion of complaining about "infringement of your civil liberties as an American" in Texas no longer has meaning.

15 Nov 2012 07:19 AM
Frogmug     
This is silly. If Texas were to split up into 5 different states I can pretty much guarantee at least 2 (maybe 3) of those new states would swing over to the Democrats. South and west Texas definitely would. East and North would probably stay republican, although Houston and Dallas would keep them competitive. Central would stay solidly republican. No changing that. This would be a lose-lose scenario for the right. More Dems in the house and senate and a big chunk of reliable electoral votes would be lost.

"If we invoke it, the United States Senate would kick us out ... because they're not going to allow 10 (sic) new Texas senators into the Senate. That's how you secede."

Also nonsense. He automatically assumes all 10 would be republican. Not a chance. And 10 new senators that would probably be a mix of democrats and republicans is not going to break the senate... and would be a lot less damaging than allowing an entire state (with a hell of a lot of oil and other natural resources) to leave. The GOP has spent 15 years cementing their control over Texas, they wouldn't just throw it away now.

15 Nov 2012 07:20 AM
BronyMedic     

SgtArkie: no, I mean the productive people leave and do their own thing, let you robbers have 100% of nothing.


So, as I said before, purely capitalistic intellectual circle jerk material.

The whole crux of the plot of Atlas Shrugged, and the "productive people" leaving, is the development of a perpetual energy generator, rendering all other forms of power generation and supply obsolete. Without that opus, the entire story falls flat on it's face.

15 Nov 2012 07:20 AM
maggoo     
One moron starts a petition, a couple thousand partisan morons vote it up to try to put the president in political hot water, and the media hypes it up as if it was something serious.

15 Nov 2012 07:21 AM
JohnnyC     

maggoo: One moron starts a petition, a couple thousand partisan morons vote it up to try to put the president in political hot water, and the media hypes it up as if it was something serious.


Eh... Most of the response I've seen so far is... "sore losers"

15 Nov 2012 07:24 AM
Cold_Sassy     
God, please let them.

15 Nov 2012 07:26 AM
bunner     

BronyMedic: The whole crux of the plot of Atlas Shrugged, and the "productive people" leaving, is the development of a perpetual energy generator, rendering all other forms of power generation and supply obsolete. Without that opus, the entire story falls flat on it's face.


That's the cool thing about fiction. Much like cartoons, your characters can walk on walls and a black box can solve everything. That's why it's fiction.

15 Nov 2012 07:26 AM
FizixJunkee     
www.superpoop.comView Full Size

15 Nov 2012 07:29 AM
dstanley    [TotalFark]  

BronyMedic: New rule for Journalists: If the answer to your headline's question-format subject can be phrased simply as "No.", don't write it as a question.

Of course, the people of Texas could actually form an army of their own and "secede". To be quite frank, any group could do so and claim to secede, and defy the will of the Local, State, and Federal Government. However, it'd be just as legitimate as if I crowned myself the Prince of Equestria, and went around issuing official decrees based upon that. And any murder, mayhem, and crime they committed would be treated exactly thus. Murder, mayhem, and crime.

Only in this case, it'd involve unleashing the United States Military on the American people. And they think the civil authorities are arbitrary and dictatorial?

On second thought, Prince of Equestria don't sound half bad.


I have the weirdest boner right now.

15 Nov 2012 07:32 AM
OtherLittleGuy    [TotalFark]  

fnorgby: No.

There's a Supreme Court case from the post-Civil War era that addressed whether Texas has a right to secede. SCOTUS said, basically, that the Union is an all-or-nothing deal. (Texas v White, 74 U.S. 700 (1868))



Because once SCOTUS says No, it's in permanent.

15 Nov 2012 07:32 AM
GORDON     

Xai: Even if it could, Do you really think a supermajority of voters (this would have to include 100% republicans and at least some democrats) would vote to secede? No. This is yet another baby-kicking-toys-out-of-crib move by whiny republicans upset that democracy actually works.


It is a process, but so is decompositions. Decomposition works, too.

15 Nov 2012 07:33 AM
Bendal     
The only way I see secession being allowed is if Congress passes an amendment to the Constitution allowing it, and enough states agree and ratify it. Only then would secession be legal; until then this is nothing but whiny butthurt crybabies wanting to take their state and go home because they didn't get what they wanted.

/when Bush was elected Democrats threatened to leave the country
//at least they didn't want to take the state with them

15 Nov 2012 07:34 AM
August11    [TotalFark]  
Some of the best people I have ever met were Texans. I met them in other states, other than Texas. They had moved out of Texas.

I wonder what Texas is like?

15 Nov 2012 07:35 AM
FizixJunkee     
We're in England at the moment. Two nights ago, while drinking at one of those pubs that's been operating continuously since the 16th century, we--two Americans and two British--drunkenly discussed the chances of New England seceding en masse from the U.S. and returning to the British Empire, and whether the Queen, et al. would be cool with that.

\getting a kick and all that

15 Nov 2012 07:36 AM
OtherLittleGuy    [TotalFark]  
So, once you join, you can never leave?

villagegreenrealty.files.wordpress.comView Full Size


Welcome,. Puerto Rico, to La Nostra Unione.

15 Nov 2012 07:37 AM
bunner     

August11: I wonder what Texas is like?


Flat and hot and with streets wider than Moscow in some places.

15 Nov 2012 07:40 AM
Frogmug     

August11: Some of the best people I have ever met were Texans. I met them in other states, other than Texas. They had moved out of Texas.

I wonder what Texas is like?


Texas is pretty damn great. You'll come across some pretty awful, small-minded people if you head out into the more rural areas, but stick to the cities and you'll have a blast. Well, except Houston maybe... Rough town...

15 Nov 2012 07:40 AM
jso2897     

BronyMedic: SgtArkie: no, I mean the productive people leave and do their own thing, let you robbers have 100% of nothing.

So, as I said before, purely capitalistic intellectual circle jerk material.

The whole crux of the plot of Atlas Shrugged, and the "productive people" leaving, is the development of a perpetual energy generator, rendering all other forms of power generation and supply obsolete. Without that opus, the entire story falls flat on it's face.


Yes - but I disapprove of attempts to educate them. I find the right-winger's conviction that people of their political persuasion are more productive than those with whom they disagree is one of the cutest, most quaint things they believe.

15 Nov 2012 07:41 AM
BronyMedic     

bunner: That's the cool thing about fiction. Much like cartoons, your characters can walk on walls and a black box can solve everything. That's why it's fiction.


I can hate you one day, and love you the next.

The problem is that Rand wrote a social commentary around a speculative fiction which could never exist. The idea that if certain influential members of industry and Government suddenly snuffed themselves from the face of the earth, the entire system would collapse is silly, because others would rise up in their place thanks to the free market, even with regulation.

15 Nov 2012 07:43 AM
txhitech     

fnorgby: No.

There's a Supreme Court case from the post-Civil War era that addressed whether Texas has a right to secede. SCOTUS said, basically, that the Union is an all-or-nothing deal. (Texas v White, 74 U.S. 700 (1868))

The issue, specifically: Texas had a bunch of US-issued bearer bonds, which it continued to sell after secession. After the Civil War, some officials of the pre-secession TX government sued to recover the money raised from those bonds. The post-war TX government didn't want to give up the money -- it claimed that the sales during the Civil War were legit, because the provisional government was the legitimate government of TX during the secession years.

SCOTUS said no. The provisional government had no legitimacy, because a state -- ANY state, TX or not -- cannot secede. The sales were not legitmate.


I used this exact ripost when the topic came up at work. I think their response was "You're not the boss of me"!

15 Nov 2012 07:45 AM
bunner     

BronyMedic: I can hate you one day, and love you the next.


I think that has something to do with the fact that some of your ostensibly unimpeachable opinions are indexed to your profession. We all get defined a little by the things we do for money. I don't let it bother me but I don't just pick up a fork and start chewing, either.

15 Nov 2012 07:45 AM
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