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   Imagine California hosting a vote to secede. That's essentially what is happening in Spain right now

20 Nov 2012 12:36 PM   |   6779 clicks   |   Guardian
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Paris1127    [TotalFark]  
Not a surprise, Spain is essentially a bunch of autonomous communities: Catalonians, Andalusians, Galicians, Basques, etc. La Mancha considers secession tilting at windmills. Elsewhere in Europe: stupid Flanders is even more serious about separating from Belgium and Scotland's going to vote on becoming its own country (but, ya know, with Elizabeth still as Queen). All Europe needs now is eastern Austria to split away, then they'd have another Vienna Secession.

20 Nov 2012 09:42 AM
The Third Man     
This would be like California separating from the US...if California spoke a different language and shared more in common trade-and-culture-wise with western Mexico than with the rest of the US.

Well yeah, but even more so.

20 Nov 2012 09:53 AM
Slaxl     

Paris1127: Not a surprise, Spain is essentially a bunch of autonomous communities: Catalonians, Andalusians, Galicians, Basques, etc. La Mancha considers secession tilting at windmills. Elsewhere in Europe: stupid Flanders is even more serious about separating from Belgium and Scotland's going to vote on becoming its own country (but, ya know, with Elizabeth still as Queen). All Europe needs now is eastern Austria to split away, then they'd have another Vienna Secession.


There are some cynics or perhaps even conspiracy theorists who note the connection in the rise of these separatist movements with the plan by the EU to divide itself into regions, rather than countries, after it federalizes, or to strip away national identity to make federalizing easier.

/adjusts lead lined hat... tin foil is what the government hands out to keep them in your brainwaves.

20 Nov 2012 09:59 AM
unlikely    [TotalFark]  
If they do this will the Basque nationalists try again?

20 Nov 2012 10:13 AM
unlikely    [TotalFark]  

Paris1127: La Mancha considers secession tilting at windmills.


I thought La Mancha was part of Catalonia?

/off to re-educate myself on geography...

20 Nov 2012 10:14 AM
whistleridge    [TotalFark]  
Catalonia, Scotland, Flanders, et al are making a historically serious mistake right now. Opting for small-state autonomy may be the 'right' short-term economical decision, but I predict it will come back to bite them in the ass later.

Unless everyone does it, and they all federate into a US of Europe. Then it might work out.

20 Nov 2012 10:49 AM
Slaxl     

whistleridge: Catalonia, Scotland, Flanders, et al are making a historically serious mistake right now. Opting for small-state autonomy may be the 'right' short-term economical decision, but I predict it will come back to bite them in the ass later.

Unless everyone does it, and they all federate into a US of Europe. Then it might work out.


Uniting Europe won't work. We hate each other too much. Then you have wildly different national characteristics and attitudes and ... wait, *remembers US election...

Maybe it could work.

20 Nov 2012 10:51 AM
Diogenes    [TotalFark]  

Slaxl: whistleridge: Catalonia, Scotland, Flanders, et al are making a historically serious mistake right now. Opting for small-state autonomy may be the 'right' short-term economical decision, but I predict it will come back to bite them in the ass later.

Unless everyone does it, and they all federate into a US of Europe. Then it might work out.

Uniting Europe won't work. We hate each other too much. Then you have wildly different national characteristics and attitudes and ... wait, *remembers US election...

Maybe it could work.


The Catalunians back in the day thought they'd have a better shot at joining the EU alone, because they feared the rest of Spain was viewed as being lazy.

They were so proud to have the Olympics in Barcelona in '92 (I was there). They looked at it as their opportunity to emphasize their uniqueness to a world that probably wasn't even much aware of it (thanks Franco).

And I say this as someone who speaks Castellano. I had never been to Catalunia and was surprised at how many people there refused to speak to me.

20 Nov 2012 11:04 AM
Paris1127    [TotalFark]  

unlikely: Paris1127: La Mancha considers secession tilting at windmills.

I thought La Mancha was part of Catalonia?

/off to re-educate myself on geography...


La Mancha is Castille.

Diogenes: Slaxl: whistleridge: Catalonia, Scotland, Flanders, et al are making a historically serious mistake right now. Opting for small-state autonomy may be the 'right' short-term economical decision, but I predict it will come back to bite them in the ass later.

Unless everyone does it, and they all federate into a US of Europe. Then it might work out.

Uniting Europe won't work. We hate each other too much. Then you have wildly different national characteristics and attitudes and ... wait, *remembers US election...

Maybe it could work.

The Catalunians back in the day thought they'd have a better shot at joining the EU alone, because they feared the rest of Spain was viewed as being lazy.

They were so proud to have the Olympics in Barcelona in '92 (I was there). They looked at it as their opportunity to emphasize their uniqueness to a world that probably wasn't even much aware of it (thanks Franco).

And I say this as someone who speaks Castellano. I had never been to Catalunia and was surprised at how many people there refused to speak to me.


Is Catalan similar at all to Spanish? I mean, I know they're both romance languages, but I'm under the impression that it's really a separate language from Castillian/Standard Spanish and not a dialect. Wikipedia has Catalan more closely related to Occitan (a French language) than to Castillian.

20 Nov 2012 11:20 AM
Diogenes    [TotalFark]  

Paris1127: Is Catalan similar at all to Spanish? I mean, I know they're both romance languages, but I'm under the impression that it's really a separate language from Castillian/Standard Spanish and not a dialect. Wikipedia has Catalan more closely related to Occitan (a French language) than to Castillian.


Significantly different. I have a much easier time with Latin American and Caribbean Spanish than I do with Catalan.

20 Nov 2012 11:21 AM
ArkAngel    [TotalFark]  
Didn't California already secede from Spain?

20 Nov 2012 11:43 AM
xanadian    [TotalFark]  

Paris1127: Is Catalan similar at all to Spanish? I mean, I know they're both romance languages, but I'm under the impression that it's really a separate language from Castillian/Standard Spanish and not a dialect. Wikipedia has Catalan more closely related to Occitan (a French language) than to Castillian.


Heh. Catalan is to Spain as Quebec is to Canada.

20 Nov 2012 11:56 AM
unlikely    [TotalFark]  

Paris1127: La Mancha is Castille.


So my new-found education in Spain's geography tells me.
I love being able to admit I don't know something and then being willing to learn it.
Makes me feel cool.

Paris1127: Is Catalan similar at all to Spanish? I mean, I know they're both romance languages, but I'm under the impression that it's really a separate language from Castillian/Standard Spanish and not a dialect. Wikipedia has Catalan more closely related to Occitan (a French language) than to Castillian.


When we were in Barcelona, I was the Italian and French speaker traveling with two Spanish speakers. I picked up the Catalan much more quickly than they did. Whenever I didn't know a word, I used the French word and if that wasn't right the Italian one worked. Written Catalan you pronounce like French - it even has the c-cedille that sounds like an S. Hello was still 'hola' but goodbye was "adieu" or something close.

I don't speak Catalan was "no parlo el Catala" - probably the most useful. Strangely when I'd follow that with "vous parlez Francais?" they'd generally say "No... English?"

20 Nov 2012 11:59 AM
Paris1127    [TotalFark]  

unlikely: Paris1127: Is Catalan similar at all to Spanish? I mean, I know they're both romance languages, but I'm under the impression that it's really a separate language from Castillian/Standard Spanish and not a dialect. Wikipedia has Catalan more closely related to Occitan (a French language) than to Castillian.

When we were in Barcelona, I was the Italian and French speaker traveling with two Spanish speakers. I picked up the Catalan much more quickly than they did. Whenever I didn't know a word, I used the French word and if that wasn't right the Italian one worked. Written Catalan you pronounce like French - it even has the c-cedille that sounds like an S. Hello was still 'hola' but goodbye was "adieu" or something close.

I don't speak Catalan was "no parlo el Catala" - probably the most useful. Strangely when I'd follow that with "vous parlez Francais?" they'd generally say "No... English?"


I learned Italian quickly because A. I was in Italy and 2. I spoke French (shocking, I know). When I tried to learn German I found, as I'd expected, my efforts to use my French and Italian in vain. That the teacher was a biatch was also a factor in me giving up. I'm thinking Portuguese for my next language---if only because it's such a beautiful language (and hilarious with the right phrasebook). Portuguese would also be somewhat useful for Spain, as the language is very similar to Galician (they were originally the same language), and apparently Castillian-speakers and Portuguese-speakers can understand each other fairly well.

20 Nov 2012 12:20 PM
OtherBrotherDarryl    [TotalFark]  

ArkAngel: Didn't California already secede from Spain?


That was smart AND funny.

20 Nov 2012 12:40 PM
kiwimoogle84     
California is already on it's way to becoming the next Detroit Michigan. What with Hostess closing and Campbell leaving Sacramento... Goodbye, 18,000 jobs. San Francisco and LA will thrive but my home, Sac, the capital, is kind of screwed.

Maybe we SHOULD secede.

And I'm not terribly surprised about Spain. I don't think they e wanted to be part of the euro system for a while now.

20 Nov 2012 12:42 PM
Zasteva     
Oh stop! You'll get the GOP all excited with that kind of talk...

20 Nov 2012 12:42 PM
antron     

ArkAngel: Didn't California already secede from Spain?


Nice.

20 Nov 2012 12:42 PM
thespindrifter     
Well, looks like it's all been covered in the first few comments, nothing more to see here, move along.

20 Nov 2012 12:43 PM
Marine1     
Good to see the Europeans are still stuck on the idea that countries should be based on how your last name is spelled and where you go to church.

So, Euro-farkers, what's the over-under on the chances of this one going full ethnic cleansing like the last few "separations"?

20 Nov 2012 12:45 PM
cig-mkr     
Just another case of the rich wanting to distance themselves from the poor.

20 Nov 2012 12:45 PM
Tat'dGreaser     
Good for them, I hope they succeed.

20 Nov 2012 12:46 PM
SuperT     

Slaxl: Paris1127: Not a surprise, Spain is essentially a bunch of autonomous communities: Catalonians, Andalusians, Galicians, Basques, etc. La Mancha considers secession tilting at windmills. Elsewhere in Europe: stupid Flanders is even more serious about separating from Belgium and Scotland's going to vote on becoming its own country (but, ya know, with Elizabeth still as Queen). All Europe needs now is eastern Austria to split away, then they'd have another Vienna Secession.

There are some cynics or perhaps even conspiracy theorists who note the connection in the rise of these separatist movements with the plan by the EU to divide itself into regions, rather than countries, after it federalizes, or to strip away national identity to make federalizing easier.

/adjusts lead lined hat... tin foil is what the government hands out to keep them in your brainwaves.



would that be a bad thing? I live in northern ky, I foremost consider myself a cincinnatian. do my panties get in a bunch that my city or state aren't their own soverign country? no. it's dumb. it's basically branding. who cares that much about branding. no one from texas is coming in to the nati and changing our chili because we are both in the same nation-state.

20 Nov 2012 12:46 PM
hdhale     

ArkAngel: Didn't California already secede from Spain?


Paris1127: unlikely: Paris1127: Is Catalan similar at all to Spanish? I mean, I know they're both romance languages, but I'm under the impression that it's really a separate language from Castillian/Standard Spanish and not a dialect. Wikipedia has Catalan more closely related to Occitan (a French language) than to Castillian.

When we were in Barcelona, I was the Italian and French speaker traveling with two Spanish speakers. I picked up the Catalan much more quickly than they did. Whenever I didn't know a word, I used the French word and if that wasn't right the Italian one worked. Written Catalan you pronounce like French - it even has the c-cedille that sounds like an S. Hello was still 'hola' but goodbye was "adieu" or something close.

I don't speak Catalan was "no parlo el Catala" - probably the most useful. Strangely when I'd follow that with "vous parlez Francais?" they'd generally say "No... English?"

I learned Italian quickly because A. I was in Italy and 2. I spoke French (shocking, I know). When I tried to learn German I found, as I'd expected, my efforts to use my French and Italian in vain. That the teacher was a biatch was also a factor in me giving up. I'm thinking Portuguese for my next language---if only because it's such a beautiful language (and hilarious with the right phrasebook). Portuguese would also be somewhat useful for Spain, as the language is very similar to Galician (they were originally the same language), and apparently Castillian-speakers and Portuguese-speakers can understand each other fairly well.


It's like Spain, Portugal and France were once part of some vast empire or something with a common language....

20 Nov 2012 12:48 PM
Arcanum     
This is what democracy looks like!

Since the USA is not very federalist, we have to deal with one side or the other pissing off the other side.

While there are pockets of liberalism everyone, and same for conservatism, we could be a happier USA if we split into two countries, peacefully, one federalist and limited and the other socialist and expansive.

I don't see what the problem is, other than folks trying to run the lives of people who disagree.

20 Nov 2012 12:49 PM
torr5962     
California is a poor analogy, as they are much more broke than the US at large.
This is like Texas attempting to secede.

20 Nov 2012 12:49 PM
iheartscotch     
Spain is deciding if California is leaving the union?

20 Nov 2012 12:51 PM
tommyl66     
Talk about voter suppression, how are the poor and elderly Californians supposed to get all the way to Spain to vote?

/Damn you, Whitey!

20 Nov 2012 12:52 PM
BitwiseShift     
When you subjugate a country that speaks a different language, and that overlord bleeds it dry in taxes-- secession is a mild word. F*ck Franco and bon nite Spain.

20 Nov 2012 12:52 PM
davidphogan     

kiwimoogle84: California is already on it's way to becoming the next Detroit Michigan. What with Hostess closing and Campbell leaving Sacramento... Goodbye, 18,000 jobs. San Francisco and LA will thrive but my home, Sac, the capital, is kind of screwed.

Maybe we SHOULD secede.

And I'm not terribly surprised about Spain. I don't think they e wanted to be part of the euro system for a while now.


Sacramento at least has SoCal and the Bay area to help prop it up. Other than being the state capitol I never could figure out why Sacramento was a city anyway.

20 Nov 2012 12:53 PM
unlikely    [TotalFark]  

Paris1127: I learned Italian quickly because A. I was in Italy and 2. I spoke French (shocking, I know). When I tried to learn German I found, as I'd expected, my efforts to use my French and Italian in vain. That the teacher was a biatch was also a factor in me giving up. I'm thinking Portuguese for my next language---if only because it's such a beautiful language (and hilarious with the right phrasebook). Portuguese would also be somewhat useful for Spain, as the language is very similar to Galician (they were originally the same language), and apparently Castillian-speakers and Portuguese-speakers can understand each other fairly well.


I started out with Latin in HS and added classical Greek when I was an undergrad. French and Italian were quick to pick up. Understanding the grammatical constructs in Latin and Greek helped with German too - when the teacher said "dative" I got it, it didn't take me a year to understand inflected cases - but the vocab was really freaking hard. I can understand Spanish pretty well and form a few sentences, but I have to agree with you that Portugese is probably the most beautiful of the romance languages I don't know (yet).

Right now I'm working on Croatian, which is also actually a lot more beautiful than I'd expected. Again, the Greek and Latin grammar are working wonders - my ability to construct sentences is far in advance of my "40 year old guy can't memorize a list of words for crap any more" vocabulary.

Maybe I should do Portugese next. At least then I'll be able to guess at the vocab when I don't know it...

20 Nov 2012 12:54 PM
MonoChango     
Hey I have an idea! Lets try this cool new thing call Federalism. Each state can do pretty much whatever they want but "Let the central government do the things that only central governments can do -- national defense, regulation of trade to keep the provinces from engaging in economic warfare with one another, protection of basic civil rights" 
That way Texas can be Texas without imposing it's free enterprise on California, and California can have its socialism, without bringing down the rest of the country.

20 Nov 2012 01:00 PM
unlikely    [TotalFark]  

unlikely: Maybe I should do Portugese next.


Actually I have a better idea. I should spend a year or two in Paris and then another year or two in Arles or Perpignan or Toulon or something.

And then a couple years in Croatia.

/need a little more cash before I can do that

20 Nov 2012 01:00 PM
Hector Remarkable     
So cats will finally have their own nation. First 'Cats' the Musical, then Caturday, now this.
This is how Planet of the Apes starts, only with cats.

20 Nov 2012 01:04 PM
kiwimoogle84     

davidphogan: kiwimoogle84: California is already on it's way to becoming the next Detroit Michigan. What with Hostess closing and Campbell leaving Sacramento... Goodbye, 18,000 jobs. San Francisco and LA will thrive but my home, Sac, the capital, is kind of screwed.

Maybe we SHOULD secede.

And I'm not terribly surprised about Spain. I don't think they e wanted to be part of the euro system for a while now.

Sacramento at least has SoCal and the Bay area to help prop it up. Other than being the state capitol I never could figure out why Sacramento was a city anyway.


Hey now. I don't barge into your state and sneer at it. Sacramento is quite nice. It's halfway between SF and Lake Tahoe. Lots of good food and great hospital systems. And second most trees per capita of any city in the world second to Paris.

20 Nov 2012 01:07 PM
earthwirm     

SuperT: Slaxl: Paris1127: Not a surprise, Spain is essentially a bunch of autonomous communities: Catalonians, Andalusians, Galicians, Basques, etc. La Mancha considers secession tilting at windmills. Elsewhere in Europe: stupid Flanders is even more serious about separating from Belgium and Scotland's going to vote on becoming its own country (but, ya know, with Elizabeth still as Queen). All Europe needs now is eastern Austria to split away, then they'd have another Vienna Secession.

There are some cynics or perhaps even conspiracy theorists who note the connection in the rise of these separatist movements with the plan by the EU to divide itself into regions, rather than countries, after it federalizes, or to strip away national identity to make federalizing easier.

/adjusts lead lined hat... tin foil is what the government hands out to keep them in your brainwaves.


would that be a bad thing? I live in northern ky, I foremost consider myself a cincinnatian. do my panties get in a bunch that my city or state aren't their own soverign country? no. it's dumb. it's basically branding. who cares that much about branding. no one from texas is coming in to the nati and changing our chili because we are both in the same nation-state.


That is not chili. Texans should come in and change it by force.

/Texan
//Familiar with Cincinnati and the atrocity that is Northern, KY.
///Cincinnati is not known for its chili. It's "known" for its chili.

20 Nov 2012 01:09 PM
wildcardjack     
Okay, Europe, we're going to do you that favor again.

We're going to bomb every residence and factory to the ground. Then you can sweep up and rebuild again and maybe this time you'll get it right with a federalist system. This "we're all independent but the same union" shiat doesn't work.

20 Nov 2012 01:09 PM
sodomizer     
Liberals and conservatives are incompatible.

Secession is coming to the USA again, too.

20 Nov 2012 01:14 PM
SuperT     

earthwirm: SuperT: Slaxl: Paris1127: Not a surprise, Spain is essentially a bunch of autonomous communities: Catalonians, Andalusians, Galicians, Basques, etc. La Mancha considers secession tilting at windmills. Elsewhere in Europe: stupid Flanders is even more serious about separating from Belgium and Scotland's going to vote on becoming its own country (but, ya know, with Elizabeth still as Queen). All Europe needs now is eastern Austria to split away, then they'd have another Vienna Secession.

There are some cynics or perhaps even conspiracy theorists who note the connection in the rise of these separatist movements with the plan by the EU to divide itself into regions, rather than countries, after it federalizes, or to strip away national identity to make federalizing easier.

/adjusts lead lined hat... tin foil is what the government hands out to keep them in your brainwaves.


would that be a bad thing? I live in northern ky, I foremost consider myself a cincinnatian. do my panties get in a bunch that my city or state aren't their own soverign country? no. it's dumb. it's basically branding. who cares that much about branding. no one from texas is coming in to the nati and changing our chili because we are both in the same nation-state.

That is not chili. Texans should come in and change it by force.

/Texan
//Familiar with Cincinnati and the atrocity that is Northern, KY.
///Cincinnati is not known for its chili. It's "known" for its chili.


I've been to texas. You don't have anything to brag about. throwing every chili pepper fruit in 100 yards into a pot of hamburger and beans to make a overly spiced, to hide the shiatty flavor, meat and tomato stew does not chili make.

Cincinnati chili is the only chili.

20 Nov 2012 01:15 PM
Broktun     
ftfa:". . .dig Catalonia out of a debt and deficit hole and provide greater investment and a better welfare state

BOLD IS MINE

WTF?

Create a better "welfare state"?

What does that mean, and why would anyone want to create a welfare state?

Catalonia wants to keep everyone on the dole?

I'm so confused.

20 Nov 2012 01:16 PM
superdude72     

torr5962: California is a poor analogy, as they are much more broke than the US at large.
This is like Texas attempting to secede.


You're trolling, right? The California economy is the largest in the United States--nearly 50 percent larger than that of the next largest, Texas. In GDP per capita, California ranks 12th out of US states while Texas ranks 24th, so California is a far richer state even when adjusted for its large population. It is not "broke."

20 Nov 2012 01:17 PM
SuperT     

Broktun: ftfa:". . .dig Catalonia out of a debt and deficit hole and provide greater investment and a better welfare state

BOLD IS MINE

WTF?

Create a better "welfare state"?

What does that mean, and why would anyone want to create a welfare state?

Catalonia wants to keep everyone on the dole?

I'm so confused.


more like 'healthcare" "quality of living" that sort of thing.

20 Nov 2012 01:17 PM
PowerSlacker     

kiwimoogle84: davidphogan: kiwimoogle84: California is already on it's way to becoming the next Detroit Michigan. What with Hostess closing and Campbell leaving Sacramento... Goodbye, 18,000 jobs. San Francisco and LA will thrive but my home, Sac, the capital, is kind of screwed.

Maybe we SHOULD secede.

And I'm not terribly surprised about Spain. I don't think they e wanted to be part of the euro system for a while now.

Sacramento at least has SoCal and the Bay area to help prop it up. Other than being the state capitol I never could figure out why Sacramento was a city anyway.

Hey now. I don't barge into your state and sneer at it. Sacramento is quite nice. It's halfway between SF and Lake Tahoe. Lots of good food and great hospital systems. And second most trees per capita of any city in the world second to Paris.


There's a really great "marching in the shade" joke to be made here, but I can't find it...

20 Nov 2012 01:18 PM
MonoChango     

Broktun: Catalonia wants to keep everyone on the dole?

I'm so confused.


Beggars are easier to please and do as they are told. They have no hooks into a free person so they can't control them as easy.

20 Nov 2012 01:22 PM
MonoChango     

SuperT: "quality of living"


Sad when your quality of life depends on the handouts from your "betters"

20 Nov 2012 01:23 PM
MonoChango     

MonoChango: SuperT: "quality of living"

Sad when your quality of life depends on the handouts from your "betters"




I'm new to this whole trolling thing was that a good one?

20 Nov 2012 01:24 PM
Raven Darke     
This has been brewing since the Peninsula War in 1812. Catalan rebels tried to leave Spain (a French Satilite) and ally with England.

Didn't work then...
So good luck with this.

20 Nov 2012 01:28 PM
sunsawed     
Is Catalan similar at all to Spanish? I mean, I know they're both romance languages, but I'm under the impression that it's really a separate language from Castillian/Standard Spanish and not a dialect. Wikipedia has Catalan more closely related to Occitan (a French language) than to Castillian.

It's all a flux of regional dialects. National languages are artificial constructions where the politically powerful or "culturally superior" centers subjugate and marginalize the "lesser" dialects in pursuit of national identity and cohesion. So the King's English in London Parisian becomes the national standard. The problem in Spain is the Cultural center of Barcelona taking on the Political center of Madrid. The Catalans feel culturally closer to the Provençals.

Oddly, the Provençals have no problem being French. That's because "Langue d'Oc verso Langue d'Oeil" is a problem as old as France and they called it off long ago. The French never tried to beat the Provençal out of them as Franco tried to beat the Catalan out. And everyone tried historically to beat the Basque out, since it's completely unrelated to any other language.

In Italy, they have dialects all over the place, but no one minds deferring to Florence's speech for official purposes.

20 Nov 2012 01:29 PM
whistleridge    [TotalFark]  

Raven Darke: This has been brewing since the Peninsula War in 1812. Catalan rebels tried to leave Spain (a French Satilite) and ally with England.

Didn't work then...
So good luck with this.


Catalonia have never been enthusiastic subjects of the Spanish crown. They were the kingdom of Aragon, they speak a different language, and they were milked for cash for centuries to pay for Spain's stupid religious idiocy. There has always been a separatist underground, much like there was in Ireland.

/ I'm guessing you read Patrick O'Brian?

20 Nov 2012 01:32 PM
JackieRabbit     
Hmmm... If Catalonia can get Aragon, Navarra and the Basque Country to join them, they can charge everyone else a toll to get into France. This could work out well.

20 Nov 2012 01:39 PM
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