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   Oh, you're a war veteran, kid? Hey, that's cool. Reminds me of my own war veteran days, back before things got so easy. Did you know we walked uphill to the battlefield, barefoot? And were thankful? It was uphill back to the base, too

24 Nov 2012 11:26 PM   |   11503 clicks   |   NBC News
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BarkingUnicorn     
"What're you in for?"

"Litterin'."

And they all moved away from me.

"What'd you do in the war?"

"Dropped bombs from drones onto Afghans while sitting in Arlington, Va."

And they all moved away from me.

24 Nov 2012 08:00 PM
Bathia_Mapes    [TotalFark]  
In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.

24 Nov 2012 08:02 PM
vpb    [TotalFark]  

Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.


Well, that and you had to do something heroic to be a hero. Not just enlist.

24 Nov 2012 08:04 PM
revrendjim    [TotalFark]  

Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.


True, but we're still not doing the best job we could be of tending to the emotional/psychiatric needs of our veterans.

24 Nov 2012 08:06 PM
aimtastic    [TotalFark]  
Drinking away his PTSD and taking it out on his family who grew to hate him was good enough for my grandpa, dammit, so it should be good enough for these snivelling little punks.

24 Nov 2012 08:23 PM
alienated     

revrendjim: True, but we're still not doing the best job we could be of tending to the emotional/psychiatric needs of our veterans.


THIS THIS THIS.

Anyhow- each generation has had it easier. I know it gets cold in Afghanistan, but read some accounts of the battle of the bulge, or just consider d day- we were basically throwing waves in hopes that numbers would work.thankfully we no longer employ that tactic.

vpb: Well, that and you had to do something heroic to be a hero. Not just enlist.

Also true.

24 Nov 2012 08:25 PM
alienated     
*throwing waves of men . oops

24 Nov 2012 08:26 PM
NewportBarGuy    [TotalFark]  
Well, that perfectly describes my day at work.

revrendjim: True, but we're still not doing the best job we could be of tending to the emotional/psychiatric needs of our veterans.


They are working to improve that, I assure you. If I didn't see that they were, I'd be the first person to raise the alarm. They are increasing funding, but the vets still have to want the help. They have to seek it out. So, that's the first challenge.

I had a good conversation with Senator Whitehouse about 5 years ago. I explained to him that returning soldiers are given a questionnaire about their mental state. I explained that every soldier filling out that form knew that if they marked anything that would raise a flag, they were out of the unit and probably out of the Army. It's a fine line. We want well-trained killing machines, but we don't want them to go psycho in the process.

This is a field that we have gotten better with over the decades, but the conflicting nature of what we expect these soldiers to do, and what that does to them will always pose a challenge.

I will say thins, though... The newer generation is much more likely to use the VA system than their older counterparts. The fact that they can navigate the very Byzantine nature of the VA better than the old folks, seems to really piss them off. The VA does try to help, but it's almost like teaching your Grandpa how to use MS paint.

Everyone who has ever gone through basic has heard the line "It was tougher when we did it." Always. Without fail. It was always harder when someone else did it. In some ways it was, but it is all a gigantic pile of suck.

24 Nov 2012 08:27 PM
Bathia_Mapes    [TotalFark]  

revrendjim: Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.

True, but we're still not doing the best job we could be of tending to the emotional/psychiatric needs of our veterans.


Oh, I agree 100% with that, but we're still doing more than was done back when my dad was in the army.

24 Nov 2012 08:29 PM
Darth_Lukecash    [TotalFark]  

Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.


My Uncle George was station at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack. He never spoke about his time...except once. And he only said one thing.

"All we could do was stack the bodies"

Each War has its own set of difficulties. I can tell you that the WWI and Civil War probably had the worse experience with war.

24 Nov 2012 08:29 PM
coco ebert     
I remember reading that had we had the medical technology of the Vietnam era today during the Iraq War we probably would have had almost as many casualties as the Vietnam War. However, because we can keep soldiers from dying, they end up with brain injuries never seen before, thus a multitude of post-war issues (particularly considering the relatively new forms of weaponry like IEDs). I don't think it's fair at all to say veterans who have served in Iraq have not had it as bad as earlier soldiers. Also, the bonus of fighting an insurgency where you don't know who is a soldier, who isn't. That's a different war from WWII, Korea, etc.

24 Nov 2012 08:43 PM
revrendjim    [TotalFark]  

NewportBarGuy: Well, that perfectly describes my day at work.

revrendjim: True, but we're still not doing the best job we could be of tending to the emotional/psychiatric needs of our veterans.

They are working to improve that, I assure you. If I didn't see that they were, I'd be the first person to raise the alarm. They are increasing funding, but the vets still have to want the help. They have to seek it out. So, that's the first challenge.

I had a good conversation with Senator Whitehouse about 5 years ago. I explained to him that returning soldiers are given a questionnaire about their mental state. I explained that every soldier filling out that form knew that if they marked anything that would raise a flag, they were out of the unit and probably out of the Army. It's a fine line. We want well-trained killing machines, but we don't want them to go psycho in the process.

This is a field that we have gotten better with over the decades, but the conflicting nature of what we expect these soldiers to do, and what that does to them will always pose a challenge.

I will say thins, though... The newer generation is much more likely to use the VA system than their older counterparts. The fact that they can navigate the very Byzantine nature of the VA better than the old folks, seems to really piss them off. The VA does try to help, but it's almost like teaching your Grandpa how to use MS paint.

Everyone who has ever gone through basic has heard the line "It was tougher when we did it." Always. Without fail. It was always harder when someone else did it. In some ways it was, but it is all a gigantic pile of suck.


Yes we're getting better, and we need to keep at it. I served in the Army but never saw combat. I have a BIL who was a helicopter gunner in Vietnam. He has never talked about it with anyone, not even his closest family. Yes, he has issues with anger and depression. We should have helped him cope with that.

24 Nov 2012 08:44 PM
RedPhoenix122    [TotalFark]  

Darth_Lukecash: Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.

My Uncle George was station at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack. He never spoke about his time...except once. And he only said one thing.

"All we could do was stack the bodies"

Each War has its own set of difficulties. I can tell you that the WWI and Civil War probably had the worse experience with war.


Most likely Civil War, since there was a chance you would have to kill your own family.

Still, war is hell.

24 Nov 2012 08:45 PM
GGracie     
My dad had serious PTSD after he came home from Vietnam. The VA gave him a big bottle of Valium and told him to work it out on his own.

24 Nov 2012 08:52 PM
vossiewulf    [TotalFark]  
And those older war vets probably don't want to mention that to ex-Soviet vets from pretty much any war, or ex-NVA or Chinese troops.

Actually a far bigger story would be if we had gone 40-50 years WITHOUT improving the equipment, weapons, food, and overall working conditions for the troops. It's supposed to work that way, you know, we're supposed to get better at stuff as we go along.

24 Nov 2012 08:54 PM
coco ebert     
I think it is interesting that incidences of PTSD are so widely varying for American soldiers returning from the Iraq War and British soldiers returning from the same war (with PTSD levels much higher for Americans). I'm not sure if there were seeing the same type of combat but it does perhaps indicate our willingness to find trauma in every nook and cranny.

24 Nov 2012 08:55 PM
coco ebert     

GGracie: My dad had serious PTSD after he came home from Vietnam. The VA gave him a big bottle of Valium and told him to work it out on his own.


Did he?

24 Nov 2012 08:56 PM
RoyBatty     
I am in no position to judge "who had it worse." I haven't seen the homeless or mental problems in today's vets that I saw in the 70s, 80s and 90s from Vietnam. Maybe it's better or maybe suicide rates have increased. I don't know, but I thank all the vets, and hope they get the support from the nation they deserve.

I do want to say that post 2009 FARKers are pussies. No one had it as rough as the FARK class of 2005. We often went 30, 40, 50 links before getting a green, only to be shot down with cries of repeat. But 2010, 2011, 2012 FARKers? Total pussies with their 6 hours to be able to post and their broadband and their co-ed rec rooms, and 15 average link greenlighting ratios. And I see no reason to think 2013 FARKers are going to feel any less arrogant and entitled.

24 Nov 2012 08:57 PM
Krieghund     

Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.


I think that was pretty much the point of the article. With a hint of insinuating that older vets think they were tougher than today's vets. But the old vets that I know wish they knew then what they know now, they don't begrudge today's soldiers advances in medicine and technology.

24 Nov 2012 09:02 PM
Bathia_Mapes    [TotalFark]  

Darth_Lukecash: Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.

My Uncle George was station at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack. He never spoke about his time...except once. And he only said one thing.

"All we could do was stack the bodies"

Each War has its own set of difficulties. I can tell you that the WWI and Civil War probably had the worse experience with war.


Except for one occasion when my dad told his mother (my paternal grandma, obviously) his Pearl Harbor experiences, he never spoke of it again. Before his WWII experiences he was an avid hunter. When he got home he never used a firearm again for the rest of his life. I learned of his experiences second hand through grandma.

24 Nov 2012 09:10 PM
Lionel Mandrake    [TotalFark]  
"We just came home, put our heads down and got to work - without any whining."

...to a grateful nation which praised you endlessly and a booming economy with tons of jobs...

Thank you for your service, but STFU

24 Nov 2012 09:17 PM
GGracie     

coco ebert: GGracie: My dad had serious PTSD after he came home from Vietnam. The VA gave him a big bottle of Valium and told him to work it out on his own.

Did he?


He took the Valium for a short while and then threw it out. His generation didn't sit around waiting for things to get better, they went out and made them better. He has a few quirks from the war, like not eating any kind of Asian food after being a POW. He's also kind of a prick. Maybe some time with a therapist wouldn't have been such a bad idea.

24 Nov 2012 09:24 PM
Darth_Lukecash    [TotalFark]  

Bathia_Mapes:
Before his WWII experiences he was an avid hunter. When he got home he never used a firearm again for the rest of his life. I learned of his experiences second hand through grandma.


I don't think any vet who's involved in combat in forest/jungle area would feel comfortable going out in the field with a gun.

Hell, while filming two of his Vietnam Movies, Oliver Stone had to stop filming so he and his fellow film makers who were there, could settle down to continue working.

24 Nov 2012 09:41 PM
NFA    [TotalFark]  
Of course older veterans had it more difficult. They didn't get to train in sneakers to protect their joints (as the do today), they didn't get hot days off (as they do today), they ate slop instead of nutritionally balanced meals, their health care was at times questionable and depending on how far back you go they didn't get to retire with a pay check for the rest of their lives as early as age 38.

In the past, wars were fought from the perspective of attrition, throwing massive amounts of troops towards a standing army hoping to wear them down. Today we use technology to keep causalities to an absolute minimum.

In the past, there was no after care for veterans. If you had psychological problems as a result of war trauma, you were a 'weakling' and a 'pussy'. Today we spend billions on psychological care.

In the distant past if you were injured in a war, you were on your own today not only is healthcare provided, it's proved for your entire family. Our founding fathers didn't believe our nation should take care of our war injured.

So yes, today's veterans have it much, much better.

24 Nov 2012 09:51 PM
snuffy    [TotalFark]  
taking a life is not easy to deal with when you were taught from childhood that killing was wrong.

the type of combat doesn't matter when you life is at stake.

24 Nov 2012 10:18 PM
OtherLittleGuy     
Post-Op Counselor:

chrisdenison.comView Full Size

24 Nov 2012 10:38 PM
NFA    [TotalFark]  

snuffy: taking a life is not easy to deal with when you were taught from childhood that killing was wrong.

the type of combat doesn't matter when you life is at stake.


But it does. It isn't typically the moral dilemma of war that is the problem in PTSS, it's seeing your friends shredded by enemy munitions, being covered in their blood and body parts and knowing that you're only seconds away from the same fate but then something happens and you survive with that lasting memory of a horrible situation. Which is burned into you psyche by the absolute flood of adrenaline in your blood stream.

Sitting behind the controls of a drone which is flying 5 miles away and pressing a button to fire a missile at a group of enemy soliders which may kill your friends next week if you don't kill them, is a whole less psychologically traumatic. Not without lasting effects but not the same as seeing your friends put through the equivalent of a chipper shredder.

24 Nov 2012 10:39 PM
snuffy    [TotalFark]  

NFA: snuffy: taking a life is not easy to deal with when you were taught from childhood that killing was wrong.

the type of combat doesn't matter when you life is at stake.

But it does. It isn't typically the moral dilemma of war that is the problem in PTSS, it's seeing your friends shredded by enemy munitions, being covered in their blood and body parts and knowing that you're only seconds away from the same fate but then something happens and you survive with that lasting memory of a horrible situation. Which is burned into you psyche by the absolute flood of adrenaline in your blood stream.

Sitting behind the controls of a drone which is flying 5 miles away and pressing a button to fire a missile at a group of enemy soliders which may kill your friends next week if you don't kill them, is a whole less psychologically traumatic. Not without lasting effects but not the same as seeing your friends put through the equivalent of a chipper shredder.


i was not clear on my point, as i agree with you. when i said "you(sic) life at stake", i surely wasn't including the drone drivers.

24 Nov 2012 11:31 PM
snuffy    [TotalFark]  
dang i can't even quote myself right.

24 Nov 2012 11:35 PM
Browncoat     
Luxury.

24 Nov 2012 11:37 PM
crabsno termites     

Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.


I was at Schofield when Robert McNamara attacked.

Yes, your father had it harder.

/So did mine.

24 Nov 2012 11:41 PM
Strolpol     
Soldiers griping about the softness of the newer troops is a tradition as old as the historical record.

/it's just an offshoot of the regular conservative "old good/new bad" trend that has likewise always existed
//nostalgia sits next to idiocy in the book of immortal human tendencies

24 Nov 2012 11:41 PM
Nimnom     
I hear Civil War vets and WW1 vets had similar issues.

24 Nov 2012 11:44 PM
mgshamster    [TotalFark]  
Vietnam vets probably had it the worst. They were the only ones the american population treated like shiat when they came home.

/Iraq vet.

24 Nov 2012 11:44 PM
Nothing To See Here     
Raised on Military Bases, heard stories.
Served 69-73, told stories.
For anyone who has been there, Thank You.
Do not shy away from any support if you need it.
And if you can share support, please do it.
It takes along time to shake it, and you're not alone.

24 Nov 2012 11:44 PM
SwiftFox     

Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.


My dad was posted in Hawaii near the end of the war fixing airplane radios and electronics. He never complained about it at all. Ask him and he'd talk about how unfairly luxurious it was compared to what others did.

24 Nov 2012 11:47 PM
demaL-demaL-yeH     

coco ebert: I think it is interesting that incidences of PTSD are so widely varying for American soldiers returning from the Iraq War and British soldiers returning from the same war (with PTSD levels much higher for Americans). I'm not sure if there were seeing the same type of combat but it does perhaps indicate our willingness to find trauma in every nook and cranny.


There's also an expectation of "stiff upper lip". Most of the Brits I worked with had multiple tours in Northern Ireland as targets, so they'd developed coping *cough drinking, fornicating, brawling, doing crazy dangerous shiat cough cough* mechanisms.

24 Nov 2012 11:48 PM
NotoriousW.O.P     

Bathia_Mapes: Darth_Lukecash: Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.

My Uncle George was station at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack. He never spoke about his time...except once. And he only said one thing.

"All we could do was stack the bodies"

Each War has its own set of difficulties. I can tell you that the WWI and Civil War probably had the worse experience with war.

Except for one occasion when my dad told his mother (my paternal grandma, obviously) his Pearl Harbor experiences, he never spoke of it again. Before his WWII experiences he was an avid hunter. When he got home he never used a firearm again for the rest of his life. I learned of his experiences second hand through grandma.


My mother's father was a medic in the South Pacific in WWII. Mom said the only person who could wake him up in the morning was Grandma, because he was liable to come up swinging.
Of course, he was also a prick, so maybe it wasn't just PTSD.

24 Nov 2012 11:48 PM
ladyfortuna     

demaL-demaL-yeH: coco ebert: I think it is interesting that incidences of PTSD are so widely varying for American soldiers returning from the Iraq War and British soldiers returning from the same war (with PTSD levels much higher for Americans). I'm not sure if there were seeing the same type of combat but it does perhaps indicate our willingness to find trauma in every nook and cranny.

There's also an expectation of "stiff upper lip". Most of the Brits I worked with had multiple tours in Northern Ireland as targets, so they'd developed coping *cough drinking, fornicating, brawling, doing crazy dangerous shiat cough cough* mechanisms.


Also didn't the European countries contribute far fewer soldiers to the overall wars? By which I mean probably fewer of them were really seeing as much heavy fighting as the American units... Not that I have any kind of factual representations on this, just speculating.

24 Nov 2012 11:50 PM
DerekSD     

Bathia_Mapes: In some ways I think the older vets had it harder. For example...little understanding of the effects of P'TSD.

My dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. He was a 19-year old farm boy and he saw his best buddy killed during the attack. Nowadays he could received counseling to deal with that. Back then he was expected to cope as best he could.


being stationed at schofield barracks should be enough.

/the horror.
//the horror...

24 Nov 2012 11:51 PM
firefly212     
Both groups lived through the war, so they should be aware that things were worse for those who didn't come back at all. The living always lose that pissing contest.

24 Nov 2012 11:51 PM
Kalashinator     
WW 2/Korean War vets had it tougher in that their gear was significantly heavier and couldn't carry as much food and ammo for days on end, and couldn't just call up a precision missile strike if things too hot. Iraq/Afghanistan vets have it tougher in that their enemies aren't in any distinctive uniform and don't even pretend to abide by international laws of warfare. Vietnam vets could fall in the latter group as well, especially when you factor in Viet Cong.

In the end it doesn't matter. They all were sent to a strange land to kill people who tried to kill them first. They all experienced hell.

24 Nov 2012 11:53 PM
Talos     
There's also a huge difference in respect given to veterans now. I'm a 20 year multiple tour combat vet with a 4 year break in service to attend college.

Coming out of Vietnam, you didn't even want to admit you were in the service otherwise you'd get grief and at best, complete indifference from the general population. In San Diego, there were literally signs in front of apartment complexes that said, "No dogs or sailors allowed."

After Desert Storm, I remember making a stop at Boise airport to change flights. As I was walking through a concourse there was a huge "welcome home" banner, dozens of balloons, a small band, about 50 people including a (no kidding) two-star reservist general. I was thinking to myself it must be a group coming back from Desert Storm. And it was - a group of one. One kid, a private who couldn't even shave yet. I could tell from his ribbons and insignia that he wasn't even a member of the combat arms (infantry, armor or artillery). He was a support person. Could have been a cook, a payroll specialist or a truck driver and never even heard a single shot fired. But here was this massive welcoming committee for him.

Today you see servicemen and women being honored everywhere - sporting events, malls, parades, etc. Almost every national holiday has some remembrance for servicemen and women. We never saw or experienced anything like that.

I don't begrudge today's servicemen and happy to see they're getting the respect they deserve. It was just quite a bit different for my generation of warriors.

24 Nov 2012 11:53 PM
Britney Spear's Speculum     
I think being a vet of any war is difficult. There. Problem solved.

24 Nov 2012 11:54 PM
Christian Bale     
o.onionstatic.comView Full Size

24 Nov 2012 11:54 PM
Earpj     
My dad never talked of his 2 tours in Vietnam. (I was born after the second one)
He only said that "Rambo" was bullshiat and wouldn't let us watch it.
I think he received a Purple Heart, but again, never talked about it.
He was also a beer alcoholic and a serial cheater....Maybe that's how he dealt with it.

24 Nov 2012 11:56 PM
hangloose     
He made fun of my weight problem, then suggested my motto be "semper fudge."

24 Nov 2012 11:58 PM
Wise_Guy     

mgshamster: Vietnam vets probably had it the worst. They were the only ones the american population treated like shiat when they came home.

/Iraq vet.


When compared with WWII vets, they also saw much more combat. I read somewhere that the average infantryman in WWII would see about 10 days of combat in a year of service. In Vietnam, it was around 200 days. There's a big difference between marching and driving across a battlefield the size of Europe and getting dropped by helicopter to anywhere inside Vietnam in a day.

24 Nov 2012 11:59 PM
Kopycat     
The author Dave Grossman has written a series of interesting books, many dealing with this subject. I just finished "On Killing". He surmises that we trained the Vietnam troops to kill the enemy in much greater numbers then any previous war, but did not put any system in place to deal with the understandably higher rate of PTSD that should have been expected.

25 Nov 2012 12:00 AM
KrispyKritter     
my dad and my uncle were WWII veterans. they lived out their lives as alcoholic Peter Pans who abused themselves, their wives and their children. they were homophobic racist bigots, proud and ignorant. their want and need for alcohol, partying and gambling came first and foremost in the priority of things in life. they grew up in the depression era, received little education, and came up in a time when most of the country was poverty stricken but did not use this as an excuse to live a life of crime or be a scumbag on the streets.

i pity the men and women who were forced to war via the draft. people who voluntarily chose to sign on the dotted line because they are war lovers, wanted to play army man, are weak minded enough to be swayed by patriotic propaganda or think because they chose to serve it gives them a license to cop a major attitude against all who didn't serve - you all made a personal decision. there are psychiatrists who can help you if you give a damn enough to get your head fixed.

25 Nov 2012 12:02 AM
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