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   Thomas Jefferson was a dick

03 Dec 2012 05:16 AM   |   29225 clicks   |   The New York Times
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Mangoose     
My current belief is that George Washington was gay. I am completely serious about this. The crying thing when he was picked to lead as first president about how this would ruin him is what flags.

But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

/didn't read

02 Dec 2012 09:56 PM
dickfreckle     

Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

/didn't read


You basically summed up the article without reading it. I think anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the individual Fathers already knew he was a particular nasty sonofab*tch, though they certainly won't be teaching that in high school Western Civ. classes anytime soon.

My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.

02 Dec 2012 10:04 PM
marius2    [TotalFark]  
Were there any presidents that were not dicks?

/Even Teddy shot dogs when girls wouldn't date him.

02 Dec 2012 10:05 PM
GAT_00     

Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.


According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.

02 Dec 2012 10:06 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.


I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.

02 Dec 2012 10:07 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.


To be fair, John Adams was, by all accounts, an annoying, self-centered dude also who thought everyone was lazier than him.

02 Dec 2012 10:07 PM
GAT_00     

DamnYankees: GAT_00: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.

To be fair, John Adams was, by all accounts, an annoying, self-centered dude also who thought everyone was lazier than him.


Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.

02 Dec 2012 10:10 PM
bronyaur1    [TotalFark]  

DamnYankees: dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.

I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.


This. Exactly. Nicely said.

02 Dec 2012 10:10 PM
GAT_00     

bronyaur1: DamnYankees: dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.

I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.

This. Exactly. Nicely said.


Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves. Admittedly Jefferson was more...free...with his slaves than others, he's still far from alone.

02 Dec 2012 10:12 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.


Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.

02 Dec 2012 10:16 PM
violentsalvation    [TotalFark]  
I hate the newer nickels where he's looking right at you. Mind your own damn business, Tom.

02 Dec 2012 10:18 PM
Shostie    [TotalFark]  

DamnYankees: GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.

Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.


A regular slave-lover, he was.

02 Dec 2012 10:19 PM
Benevolent Misanthrope    [TotalFark]  

dickfreckle: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

/didn't read

You basically summed up the article without reading it. I think anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the individual Fathers already knew he was a particular nasty sonofab*tch, though they certainly won't be teaching that in high school Western Civ. classes anytime soon.

My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.


Indeed. What I really hate is that the body of work is more and more often shouldered aside in favor of screaming what a blue-ribbon asshole Jefferson was.

Okay. We get it. He was an ass. Now can we please move on?

02 Dec 2012 10:21 PM
GAT_00     

DamnYankees: GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.

Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.


He was and wasn't. He hated slavery, but didn't want to end it for fear of mass revolts.

there is not a man on earth who would sacrifice more than I would, to relieve us from this heavy reproach [slavery]... we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.

02 Dec 2012 10:22 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: He was and wasn't. He hated slavery, but didn't want to end it for fear of mass revolts.


Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.

Jefferson is an interesting figure, and certain parts of him are admirable, but I find it a little uneasy that people tend to be willing to give his words more credence than his actions. Jefferson never did a single thing, as far as I'm aware, to end slavery. He took zero positive steps in that regards, and was not a particularly good slave-master. He abused his actual slaves, both sexually and otherwise. There's simply no reason to think he was a secret lover of black people at heart, any more than you actually believe Mitt Romney loves poor people.

02 Dec 2012 10:25 PM
GAT_00     

DamnYankees: Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.


Ok, now you're claiming to know what was in the head of a man 200 years dead and how it contradicted what he wrote. Step back from the ledge of crazy.

02 Dec 2012 10:26 PM
Ambivalence    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.


Adams can shut his whore mouth! Franklin was unequivocally awesome.

02 Dec 2012 10:29 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: DamnYankees: Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.

Ok, now you're claiming to know what was in the head of a man 200 years dead and how it contradicted what he wrote. Step back from the ledge of crazy.


I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing. I'm just looking at his actual actions.

You're the one saying that - despite owning slaves, treating them badly, failing to free them, and failing to take any actual steps in his life towards abolition - he hated slavery in his heart. And you claim to know this because...he said so a couple time?

Think about what you're saying, please.

02 Dec 2012 10:30 PM
GAT_00     

DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing


Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.

02 Dec 2012 10:32 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing

Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.


"I care about the 100%."

I just quoted Mitt Romney. Do you believe him when he says that? I mean, you should - quoting people seems to be your standard for determining what they believe.

02 Dec 2012 10:33 PM
GAT_00     

DamnYankees: GAT_00: DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing

Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.

"I care about the 100%."

I just quoted Mitt Romney. Do you believe him when he says that? I mean, you should - quoting people seems to be your standard for determining what they believe.


All right, this is going to go nowhere. This is done now.

02 Dec 2012 10:36 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: All right, this is going to go nowhere. This is done now.


I truly hope you don't post again in this thread, or you'll be undermining your argument that the things people write are their true feelings.

02 Dec 2012 10:38 PM
Scott_Free     
Jefferson was a god of his time. Compared to the rest of our founders, he was very progressive. fark all of you all who say otherwise.

02 Dec 2012 10:42 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

Scott_Free: Jefferson was a god of his time. Compared to the rest of our founders, he was very progressive. fark all of you all who say otherwise.


In what way was he more progressive than the other founders? He was certainly more eloquent, but progressive?

02 Dec 2012 10:44 PM
Scott_Free     
Not a bible toting biatch. He thought for himself, and shaped our country based on beliefs that were based on human principles. That for his time was very progressive.

02 Dec 2012 10:47 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

Scott_Free: Not a bible toting biatch. He thought for himself, and shaped our country based on beliefs that were based on human principles. That for his time was very progressive.


Almost none of the founders were bible toting people, and all the founders signed the very idea Jefferson wrote. So I still don't see the argument.

02 Dec 2012 10:49 PM
Scott_Free     

DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Not a bible toting biatch. He thought for himself, and shaped our country based on beliefs that were based on human principles. That for his time was very progressive.

Almost none of the founders were bible toting people, and all the founders signed the very idea Jefferson wrote. So I still don't see the argument.


About half of them were. He had the balls and the leadership to keep our country on the path it is to this day. I say give him some respect. Who else put us where we are now?

02 Dec 2012 10:52 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

Scott_Free: Who else put us where we are now?


Every other founder? And the leaders who came after?

02 Dec 2012 10:54 PM
revrendjim    [TotalFark]  

Ambivalence: GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.

Adams can shut his whore mouth! Franklin was unequivocally awesome.


Franklin was a huge dick, but rather than denying it he reveled in it. Being an ornery bastard was part of his public persona.

02 Dec 2012 10:55 PM
GAT_00     

revrendjim: Ambivalence: GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.

Adams can shut his whore mouth! Franklin was unequivocally awesome.

Franklin was a huge dick, but rather than denying it he reveled in it. Being an ornery bastard was part of his public persona.


Actually, Adams felt he was turning over control of the country's future to France, which he was strenuously opposed to.

02 Dec 2012 11:00 PM
Scott_Free     

DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Who else put us where we are now?

Every other founder? And the leaders who came after?


Right. I'm wrong. They stuck their neck out and wrote a constitution for our country. Hell we must have 50 or so of them floating around somewhere. He was the MAN that started this country. Get over the things of the day that all people did. He was a great man, and better then you or I will ever be.

02 Dec 2012 11:01 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

Scott_Free: He was the MAN that started this country.


No, he really wasn't.

Scott_Free: He was a great man, and better then you or I will ever be.


He was an extremely complicated man, perhaps a great one, but probably not a good one.

02 Dec 2012 11:05 PM
dickfreckle     

Benevolent Misanthrope: What I really hate is that the body of work is more and more often shouldered aside in favor of screaming what a blue-ribbon asshole Jefferson was.


This might not be the right time to mention it, but "The Blue-Ribbon Assholes" is the name of my next band.

02 Dec 2012 11:13 PM
NewportBarGuy    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.


Read this book...

George Washington: Anguish and Farewell 1793-1799 - Volume IV

You guys want to know how important Thomas Jefferson was? Imagine if we didn't have him to battle against Alexander Hamilton while Washington presided over the Battle Royale that was the founding of this country.

He did more good than harm and that's all I can ever really ask of a fellow human being.

02 Dec 2012 11:16 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

NewportBarGuy: You guys want to know how important Thomas Jefferson was? Imagine if we didn't have him to battle against Alexander Hamilton while Washington presided over the Battle Royale that was the founding of this country.


Alexander Hamilton was basically right about everything. I'm not sure why this is good.

02 Dec 2012 11:18 PM
Shostie    [TotalFark]  

dickfreckle: Benevolent Misanthrope: What I really hate is that the body of work is more and more often shouldered aside in favor of screaming what a blue-ribbon asshole Jefferson was.

This might not be the right time to mention it, but "The Blue-Ribbon Assholes" is the name of my next band.


It's the name of my "All-American Rejects" cover band.

02 Dec 2012 11:24 PM
GAT_00     

NewportBarGuy: GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.

Read this book...

George Washington: Anguish and Farewell 1793-1799 - Volume IV

You guys want to know how important Thomas Jefferson was? Imagine if we didn't have him to battle against Alexander Hamilton while Washington presided over the Battle Royale that was the founding of this country.

He did more good than harm and that's all I can ever really ask of a fellow human being.


I'm not disputing the value of Jefferson to the founding of the country. I'm not some Texan trying to write him out of history because he had liberal tendencies. You do have to wonder how much Jefferson swung the anti-Federalists. Obviously we'd still have a National Bank.

02 Dec 2012 11:25 PM
Scott_Free     

DamnYankees: Scott_Free: He was the MAN that started this country.

No, he really wasn't.

Scott_Free: He was a great man, and better then you or I will ever be.

He was an extremely complicated man, perhaps a great one, but probably not a good one.


Really? Who else would have kick started our country? He took a stand that threatened his life. A greater person than almost anyone in the history of our country. Show me a person who did more.

02 Dec 2012 11:27 PM
NewportBarGuy    [TotalFark]  

DamnYankees: Alexander Hamilton was basically right about everything. I'm not sure why this is good.


Agrarian vs. Mercantilism. States Rights Vs. Federal Government. I will absolutely agree with you that today we are living in a Hamiltonian Republic... However, that you had a man like Jefferson to fight for the agrarian and state interests, I think, made us stronger in the beginning... Especially as we were developing as a nation.

I think it was perfect to have them battle it out like they did. We got a little bit of both and went from there.

02 Dec 2012 11:30 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

Scott_Free: Show me a person who did more.


George Washington.

02 Dec 2012 11:30 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

NewportBarGuy: DamnYankees: Alexander Hamilton was basically right about everything. I'm not sure why this is good.

Agrarian vs. Mercantilism. States Rights Vs. Federal Government. I will absolutely agree with you that today we are living in a Hamiltonian Republic... However, that you had a man like Jefferson to fight for the agrarian and state interests, I think, made us stronger in the beginning... Especially as we were developing as a nation.

I think it was perfect to have them battle it out like they did. We got a little bit of both and went from there.


This is all fine, and it might be good to say that you need the counterweight in the argument, but at the very least if we're going to say that having two arguments is good, we can agree the better argument should be remembered more fondly, right?

02 Dec 2012 11:31 PM
Scott_Free     

DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Show me a person who did more.

George Washington.


Bullshiat. Just a surveyor with money. Not even close to what Jefferson did Read your history.
\

02 Dec 2012 11:35 PM
Scott_Free     
If anyone wants to fistfight me over Jefferson, let me know. He was the shiat. I have his back.

02 Dec 2012 11:39 PM
make me some tea    [TotalFark]  
Jefferson hated being President so much that he left it off his gravestone.

02 Dec 2012 11:44 PM
NewportBarGuy    [TotalFark]  

DamnYankees: at the very least if we're going to say that having two arguments is good, we can agree the better argument should be remembered more fondly, right?


Heh... Nice. No, I'll stick with my initial observation that we needed both of them to create the foundation for the strength we have enjoyed. I tend more to Jefferson, but only because from my reading Hamilton struck me as a guy who just didn't give a sh*t about the common man. Economically, I prefer Jefferson's vision over Hamilton's eagerness to hand the reigns of power to the financial industry.

On the whole, if Jefferson had his way on everything, we would be VERY weak at a crucial time and it could have caused the whole experiment to collapse. If Hamilton had is way on everything... Well, we'd have replaced King George with King George Washington.

02 Dec 2012 11:44 PM
GAT_00     

NewportBarGuy: If Hamilton had is way on everything... Well, we'd have replaced King George with King George Washington.


Stories say that Washington was offered just that post-war. They are largely unconfirmed though.

02 Dec 2012 11:47 PM
NewportBarGuy    [TotalFark]  
To add...

The man I respect more than any of them was Washington because he had to kind of pick and choose and pitch these two in fights and such. From reading his letters he felt like every President in history, presiding over a bunch of children fighting over a toy.

I mean he basically writes: "This sucks. They are all assholes. I just want to go home and make booze. *sigh* I have to do this again for four more years? Shoot me."

02 Dec 2012 11:48 PM
NewportBarGuy    [TotalFark]  

GAT_00: Stories say that Washington was offered just that post-war. They are largely unconfirmed though.


If Hamilton got all that he wanted, that's precisely with the Executive would have become.

It was a war over who would govern the country, the few or the many. Today, we can see who has won that debate.

02 Dec 2012 11:52 PM
GAT_00     

NewportBarGuy: GAT_00: Stories say that Washington was offered just that post-war. They are largely unconfirmed though.

If Hamilton got all that he wanted, that's precisely with the Executive would have become.

It was a war over who would govern the country, the few or the many. Today, we can see who has won that debate.


No I mean supposedly a handful of ex-Minutemen came up to Washington and asked him to lead a coup to install himself King, because they didn't trust the ineffective AoC government.

02 Dec 2012 11:58 PM
DamnYankees    [TotalFark]  

NewportBarGuy: Hamilton struck me as a guy who just didn't give a sh*t about the common man.


This is a really odd thing to say when comparing someone to a slaveholder.

03 Dec 2012 12:29 AM
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