(full site)
Fark.com

Try out our new mobile site!


Back To Main
   Not trying to steal limelight from Michigan here, but the Brits seem to be having union problems of their own

12 Dec 2012 01:41 PM   |   5904 clicks   |   Telegraph
Showing 1-50 of 155 comments
Refresh Page 2
View Comments:
ChipNASA    [TotalFark]  
FsUCK UNIONS.
/there I said it.

12 Dec 2012 01:43 PM
here to help     
Chrissakes don't f*ck with teachers. It's a sh*tty enough job as it is and our "society" of shaved monkeys is getting more retarded by the second.

12 Dec 2012 01:49 PM
No Such Agency     
I don't think this guy understands what "work to rule" means.

ChipNASA:
FsUCK UNIONS.
/there I said it.


Thank you for that valuable contribution. I'm sure it will start a lively intellectual round table.

12 Dec 2012 01:50 PM
here to help     
And yeah... exhibit A: The Boobies.

12 Dec 2012 01:51 PM
WTF Indeed     
British Unions make American Unions look like the workforce of the Triangle Shirt Company.

12 Dec 2012 01:51 PM
tricycleracer     
Some say that communism is "shared misery" as opposed to "shared prosperity". What would union-busting qualify as?

12 Dec 2012 01:51 PM
illannoyin     
libcom.orgView Full Size


This is a repeat from 1979

The Result

upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size

12 Dec 2012 01:51 PM
special20    [TotalFark]  
Sure, you support the dismantling of organized labor, you deserve the slavery you will receive.

12 Dec 2012 01:52 PM
blatz514    [TotalFark]  
You spelled Wisconsin wrong subs.

12 Dec 2012 01:52 PM
whizbangthedirtfarmer     
When I taught in public education, my contract was about three pages long. Most of it was obvious stuff about child abuse and so on. If I "worked to rule," I wouldn't have to attend after-school functions, go on field trips, chaperone anything, and work from 8-3, essentially. Most weeks, I ended up working from around 7 to 4 or 5 in the evening, and, at least once a month, I had to return for an after-school event that often lasted until 8 or 9 o'clock, with a return to work early the next morning. Of course, during the "summers off," I was expected to attend meetings, have inservice days, and so on.

So, yes, teachers doing the "work to rule" thing would really expose just how underpaid and underappreciated teachers are.

12 Dec 2012 01:53 PM
DuncanMhor     
Gove is a farking idiot. He's a fundie who sent a bible "from the secretary of state for education" to every school in England and Wales. After people complained, he had to get donors to pay the government back. His plans are universally Ill considered.

What gets me is that he's up in arms about teachers doing what they're paid to do. They're not striking, they're just not taking it in the arse to paper over the gaps that the government have left in the education system.

Before the USians get started, Thatcher broke the unions, we have about four teachers unions, if you include Scottish ones and there's no such thing as a closed shop in the UK.

12 Dec 2012 01:58 PM
sethstorm     
So strict compliance with the letter of the law only OK if you're evading taxes but not for teachers?

/Thatcher did enough towards unions to hand the country to its bankers and colonies
//Her unionbusting contributed to the lack of British character in England

12 Dec 2012 02:00 PM
hasty ambush     

special20: Sure, you support the dismantling of organized labor, you deserve the slavery you will receive.


I support the dismantling of government employee organized labor. Who are they organizing against? Not some evil corporation but the tax payers.

Unions still serve a purpose in some private sector industries like coal mining.

12 Dec 2012 02:03 PM
uncleacid     
I use Visine for my damaged pupils.

12 Dec 2012 02:03 PM
DuncanMhor     

hasty ambush: special20: Sure, you support the dismantling of organized labor, you deserve the slavery you will receive.

I support the dismantling of government employee organized labor. Who are they organizing against? Not some evil corporation but the tax payers.

Unions still serve a purpose in some private sector industries like coal mining.


Bullshiat. People are working jobs, its their right to band together to ensure that they are treated fairly. Who pays them is immaterial. Do you demand that companies sell their goods to public bodies at cost? Of course not, so why should teachers sell their labour for less than it's worth?

12 Dec 2012 02:07 PM
jigger     

DuncanMhor: Who pays them is immaterial.


No it's not. When the government is funded voluntarily, then they can have their union.

12 Dec 2012 02:08 PM
Cyclometh    [TotalFark]  
yafh.comView Full Size

12 Dec 2012 02:08 PM
Day_Old_Dutchie     
I often wonder about those that elect such obvious assholes to supposedly represent them in their government.

Once they win their seat the "leader" appoints them cabinet ministers with their own little agenda and they proceed to wreak havoc. We have has a series of "education ministers" in Ontario who were absolute dicks or biatches once they got into power (one was even a HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUT!) totally ruining the relationship between the teachers and the government to this day.

How do these voters feel about themselves for putting the little 'x' beside the name of a total asshole?

12 Dec 2012 02:09 PM
tricycleracer     

Cyclometh: [yafh.com image 564x715]


Sucks that all the good places to work are cold.

12 Dec 2012 02:09 PM
ChipNASA    [TotalFark]  

No Such Agency: I don't think this guy understands what "work to rule" means.

ChipNASA:
FsUCK UNIONS.
/there I said it.

Thank you for that valuable contribution. I'm sure it will start a lively intellectual round table.


scranton.mylittlefacewhen.comView Full Size

12 Dec 2012 02:09 PM
TofuTheAlmighty     

tricycleracer: What would union-busting qualify as?


Socialize the misery, privatize the prosperity.

12 Dec 2012 02:10 PM
skullkrusher     
Midnight Oil has been warning us for decades that the union jack's in flames but did we listen? nooooooooooooooooooooo

12 Dec 2012 02:10 PM
Cyclometh    [TotalFark]  
Posted the wrong one. This one is a little more relevant to the thread.

img.photobucket.comView Full Size
 

/spent a few days combing the laws of every state for their labor rules, then collating that with incomes and teacher/public employee union protections. Results were interesting.

12 Dec 2012 02:11 PM
DeathCipris     

here to help: And yeah... exhibit A: The Boobies.

Another filter pwn. Two in one day!

12 Dec 2012 02:12 PM
DarkSoulNoHope     

DuncanMhor: Gove is a farking idiot. He's a fundie who sent a bible "from the secretary of state for education" to every school in England and Wales. After people complained, he had to get donors to pay the government back. His plans are universally Ill considered.


Why is it that Christian Conservatives, in general, always try to convert people to their beliefs using government means? No matter what the country is, could be the US, England, or at the most extreme Uganda; Christians Conservatives never seem to have a problem with government as long as they can use it to impose their belief structures. Yet turn around the other cheek, with a country that supports freedom of all beliefs and non-belief, is suddenly an "affront to Christianity" and must stop "persecuting Christians." These fundamentalist Christians are afraid of freedom in the purest sense of the word, but not their idea of freedom* (the asterisk meaning a government that doesn't force all people to either adopt, or at the least abide by, fundamentalist Christian rules).

12 Dec 2012 02:14 PM
hasty ambush     

here to help: Chrissakes don't f*ck with teachers. It's a sh*tty enough job as it is and our "society" of shaved monkeys is getting more retarded by the second.


That would indicate that the teachers are not dong a very good job. In most private sector jobs you justify going to your boss for a pay raise based on the job you are doing. You don't go up to him and say if you pay me more money I will do a better job. You had Chicago Teachers go on strike despite a 16% pay raise offer.

And let us look at Detroit, Michigan. Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading With such job performance would you give the teachers a raise?

One could easily argue they are not earning the money they are now paid 

"More than 300 teachers in the region make more than $100,000 - double the median household income - and the average top wage for a teacher with a master's degree and roughly a decade of experience is nearly $82,000,"

"The average Michigan teacher made $56,096 in 2009, according to the National Education Association, ranking the state 11th in the nation. But Michigan ranked 36th in median income last year, the result of a decade-long recession that hit the state's manufacturing base especially hard."

12 Dec 2012 02:14 PM
skullkrusher     

Cyclometh: Posted the wrong one. This one is a little more relevant to the thread.

[img.photobucket.com image 599x799] 

/spent a few days combing the laws of every state for their labor rules, then collating that with incomes and teacher/public employee union protections. Results were interesting.


but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!

12 Dec 2012 02:14 PM
badaboom     

Cyclometh: Posted the wrong one. This one is a little more relevant to the thread.

[img.photobucket.com image 599x799] 

/spent a few days combing the laws of every state for their labor rules, then collating that with incomes and teacher/public employee union protections. Results were interesting.


And this proves what?

12 Dec 2012 02:15 PM
Cyclometh    [TotalFark]  

hasty ambush: here to help: Chrissakes don't f*ck with teachers. It's a sh*tty enough job as it is and our "society" of shaved monkeys is getting more retarded by the second.

That would indicate that the teachers are not dong a very good job. In most private sector jobs you justify going to your boss for a pay raise based on the job you are doing. You don't go up to him and say if you pay me more money I will do a better job. You had Chicago Teachers go on strike despite a 16% pay raise offer.

And let us look at Detroit, Michigan. Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading With such job performance would you give the teachers a raise?

One could easily argue they are not earning the money they are now paid 

"More than 300 teachers in the region make more than $100,000 - double the median household income - and the average top wage for a teacher with a master's degree and roughly a decade of experience is nearly $82,000,"

"The average Michigan teacher made $56,096 in 2009, according to the National Education Association, ranking the state 11th in the nation. But Michigan ranked 36th in median income last year, the result of a decade-long recession that hit the state's manufacturing base especially hard."


Why should teachers be at or below the median income level for a state?

12 Dec 2012 02:16 PM
jigger     

skullkrusher: but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!


New York and Hawaii teachers are getting the shaft. New Hampshire teachers have it made.

12 Dec 2012 02:17 PM
Cyclometh    [TotalFark]  

skullkrusher: Cyclometh: Posted the wrong one. This one is a little more relevant to the thread.

[img.photobucket.com image 599x799] 

/spent a few days combing the laws of every state for their labor rules, then collating that with incomes and teacher/public employee union protections. Results were interesting.

but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!


Hm, what would some of the factors that affect cost of living be, I wonder...

12 Dec 2012 02:18 PM
BgJonson79     

special20: Sure, you support the dismantling of organized labor, you deserve the slavery you will receive.


Google doesn't have unions, they're hardly slaves.

12 Dec 2012 02:18 PM
ChipNASA    [TotalFark]  

badaboom: And this proves what?


flowingdata.comView Full Size

12 Dec 2012 02:18 PM
DuncanMhor     

jigger: DuncanMhor: Who pays them is immaterial.

No it's not. When the government is funded voluntarily, then they can have their union.


Why, because you say so? Teacher's salaries are paid out of taxation, so they're serfs who should just shut up and be grateful for what they're given? Do you demand that textbook publishers not make a profit from public schools? After all, they're being paid with your taxes.

12 Dec 2012 02:19 PM
BgJonson79     

DuncanMhor: jigger: DuncanMhor: Who pays them is immaterial.

No it's not. When the government is funded voluntarily, then they can have their union.

Why, because you say so? Teacher's salaries are paid out of taxation, so they're serfs who should just shut up and be grateful for what they're given? Do you demand that textbook publishers not make a profit from public schools? After all, they're being paid with your taxes.


They are paid from money that is taken by the barrel of a gun...

12 Dec 2012 02:20 PM
Cyclometh    [TotalFark]  

jigger: skullkrusher: but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!

New York and Hawaii teachers are getting the shaft. New Hampshire teachers have it made.


Nah, that's the median income for the state, not teachers. States that have stronger protections for teacher unions and that are not right to work tend to have higher median incomes.

The correlation does not imply causation, but it is a useful piece of information to consider.

12 Dec 2012 02:21 PM
BgJonson79     

Cyclometh: jigger: skullkrusher: but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!

New York and Hawaii teachers are getting the shaft. New Hampshire teachers have it made.

Nah, that's the median income for the state, not teachers. States that have stronger protections for teacher unions and that are not right to work tend to have higher median incomes.

The correlation does not imply causation, but it is a useful piece of information to consider.


It could be that we're also wealthier because we're smarter and give more weight to education than, say, football ;-)

12 Dec 2012 02:23 PM
indarwinsshadow     

ChipNASA: FsUCK UNIONS.
/there I said it.


Right back at you...retard.

Nothing like trolling everyone in the thread long before any objective discussion has been posted.

12 Dec 2012 02:23 PM
DeathCipris     

Cyclometh: [yafh.com image 564x715]


This is a very interesting chart! I just learned something new today. RTW states generally have lower income medians than states that take a less Draconian view and realize sometimes employers need to be reigned in.
Being that I live in VA, which I am confident is near the top due to the MASSIVE military/government presence and the benefits that come with it such as job security and the difficulty that is involved in firing an employee, I am always in fear that I can be fired for anything aside from those that violate Federal labor laws. Businesses have a free ticket to mistreat, abuse, and overwork employees without any recourse. And before you start with this "Then quit and look for work elsewhere!" bullshiat, the job market is still recovering. There aren't a hundreds of jobs to choose from. I am lucky that my job is skilled labor. I don't have to deal with some companies bullshiat, so I will take my ass elsewhere (just recently had to do that, love my new job). Not everyone has that luxury, and I believe that is what is at the heart of this sudden interest in unions, in 'Murica at least. Jobs are scarce and employees are now demanding employers treat them fairly and pay them equitably.

/IMHO

12 Dec 2012 02:23 PM
IRQ12     

DuncanMhor: hasty ambush: special20: Sure, you support the dismantling of organized labor, you deserve the slavery you will receive.

I support the dismantling of government employee organized labor. Who are they organizing against? Not some evil corporation but the tax payers.

Unions still serve a purpose in some private sector industries like coal mining.

Bullshiat. People are working jobs, its their right to band together to ensure that they are treated fairly. Who pays them is immaterial. Do you demand that companies sell their goods to public bodies at cost? Of course not, so why should teachers sell their labour for less than it's worth?


Where do you think we are on this line when it comes to public unions and "fairness"?

Death Camp Slavery------------------------------- -------------------------------- -----------------------------------Dis gusting, abusive monopoly of labor

Public position unions are terrible because there's no market force to balance power...well almost none as police and teachers are learning quickly with county takeovers and charter schools becoming popular.

12 Dec 2012 02:23 PM
FrancoFile     

Cyclometh: [yafh.com image 564x715]


Now normalize that for cost of living...

12 Dec 2012 02:24 PM
DuncanMhor     

BgJonson79: DuncanMhor: jigger: DuncanMhor: Who pays them is immaterial.

No it's not. When the government is funded voluntarily, then they can have their union.

Why, because you say so? Teacher's salaries are paid out of taxation, so they're serfs who should just shut up and be grateful for what they're given? Do you demand that textbook publishers not make a profit from public schools? After all, they're being paid with your taxes.

They are paid from money that is taken by the barrel of a gun...


Guns don't tax people, people tax people? Nobody has answered my simple question - should the government only pay cost price for goods, since its the taxpayer's money? If not why is selling labour different from selling goods?

The tax argument is bollocks - if you don't like being part of a society, just leave. Go somewhere the taxes are lower.

12 Dec 2012 02:25 PM
No Such Agency     
hasty ambush:
I support the dismantling of government employee organized labor. Who are they organizing against? Not some evil corporation but the tax payers.

Governments eager to cut costs can behave a lot like any other employer, by which I mean, unfairly. I don't see why government employees should be forbidden from organizing in order to have some power over the conditions of their employment.

"The tax payers" often demand lower taxes without much insight into what that will translate into for the people who process their drivers' licenses and passports, the people who fix their sewers, or the people who teach their children. This makes them somewhat like the shareholders of a publicly-traded corporation, who want higher stock prices and dividends without much interest in the possible consequences for the workers.  A poor analogy, but in this case I think it has merit.

12 Dec 2012 02:25 PM
Cyclometh    [TotalFark]  

BgJonson79: Cyclometh: jigger: skullkrusher: but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!

New York and Hawaii teachers are getting the shaft. New Hampshire teachers have it made.

Nah, that's the median income for the state, not teachers. States that have stronger protections for teacher unions and that are not right to work tend to have higher median incomes.

The correlation does not imply causation, but it is a useful piece of information to consider.

It could be that we're also wealthier because we're smarter and give more weight to education than, say, football ;-)


I tend to think it is only one factor, but when you look at labor protections as part of a bigger picture, it becomes clear that those states which have a more pro-labor landscape have higher incomes.

I also correlated the data to graduation rates. I'm not at my PC right now but I will post those charts later if anyone is interested.

12 Dec 2012 02:26 PM
BgJonson79     

DuncanMhor: BgJonson79: DuncanMhor: jigger: DuncanMhor: Who pays them is immaterial.

No it's not. When the government is funded voluntarily, then they can have their union.

Why, because you say so? Teacher's salaries are paid out of taxation, so they're serfs who should just shut up and be grateful for what they're given? Do you demand that textbook publishers not make a profit from public schools? After all, they're being paid with your taxes.

They are paid from money that is taken by the barrel of a gun...

Guns don't tax people, people tax people? Nobody has answered my simple question - should the government only pay cost price for goods, since its the taxpayer's money? If not why is selling labour different from selling goods?

The tax argument is bollocks - if you don't like being part of a society, just leave. Go somewhere the taxes are lower.


Try not paying your taxes and see what equipment the revenue enforcement agents bring. Also, should people not have a say in the amount of taxes they pay? Should a small minority of people be able to dictate taxes to the majority? Labour is no different from selling goods, but public unions undermine democracy ;-)

12 Dec 2012 02:27 PM
ChrisDe     

here to help: Chrissakes don't f*ck with teachers. It's a sh*tty enough job as it is and our "society" of shaved monkeys is getting more retarded by the second.


I could teach for a day. Any more than that, at those wages, I'd be pulling my hair out. Talk about "summers off" all you want, I'd be in the asylum long before summer arrived.

12 Dec 2012 02:28 PM
BgJonson79     

Cyclometh: BgJonson79: Cyclometh: jigger: skullkrusher: but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!

New York and Hawaii teachers are getting the shaft. New Hampshire teachers have it made.

Nah, that's the median income for the state, not teachers. States that have stronger protections for teacher unions and that are not right to work tend to have higher median incomes.

The correlation does not imply causation, but it is a useful piece of information to consider.

It could be that we're also wealthier because we're smarter and give more weight to education than, say, football ;-)

I tend to think it is only one factor, but when you look at labor protections as part of a bigger picture, it becomes clear that those states which have a more pro-labor landscape have higher incomes.

I also correlated the data to graduation rates. I'm not at my PC right now but I will post those charts later if anyone is interested.


I dunno, I don't consider NH pro-labor and we're relatively rich. Is there a chart for people in unions vs incomes?

12 Dec 2012 02:28 PM
Cyclometh    [TotalFark]  

FrancoFile: Cyclometh: [yafh.com image 564x715]

Now normalize that for cost of living...


No, I don't think I will. Cost of living is affected by factors such as general education levels and the affluence of the population. We can see that the cost of living is Mississippi is low, but we can also see that the quality of life sucks too.

12 Dec 2012 02:29 PM
BgJonson79     

DuncanMhor: BgJonson79: DuncanMhor: jigger: DuncanMhor: Who pays them is immaterial.

No it's not. When the government is funded voluntarily, then they can have their union.

Why, because you say so? Teacher's salaries are paid out of taxation, so they're serfs who should just shut up and be grateful for what they're given? Do you demand that textbook publishers not make a profit from public schools? After all, they're being paid with your taxes.

They are paid from money that is taken by the barrel of a gun...

Guns don't tax people, people tax people? Nobody has answered my simple question - should the government only pay cost price for goods, since its the taxpayer's money? If not why is selling labour different from selling goods?

The tax argument is bollocks - if you don't like being part of a society, just leave. Go somewhere the taxes are lower.


Isn't that how the American Revolution started?

12 Dec 2012 02:29 PM
skullkrusher     

Cyclometh: skullkrusher: Cyclometh: Posted the wrong one. This one is a little more relevant to the thread.

[img.photobucket.com image 599x799] 

/spent a few days combing the laws of every state for their labor rules, then collating that with incomes and teacher/public employee union protections. Results were interesting.

but you didn't control for COL. Back to your spreadsheets, young man!

Hm, what would some of the factors that affect cost of living be, I wonder...


unions using their anti-competition, cartel-esque monopoly pricing power inflating the costs of shiat for everyone? Why, what you thinking?

12 Dec 2012 02:29 PM
Showing 1-50 of 155 comments
Refresh Page 2
View Comments:
This thread is closed to new comments.


Back To Main

More Headlines:
Main | Sports | Business | Geek | Entertainment | Politics | Video | FarkUs | Contests | Fark Party | Combined