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  • Robo Beat: Mad_Radhu: the rudest word in the universe

    What, "Belgium"?


    "Hallmark"?
  • What_Would_Jimi_Do: It isn't like Africans enslaved other Africans and then brokered them to whites. Nope.


    A) So buying slaves is cool so long as someone else is selling?

    B) what the FARK does that have to do with what happened in the Belgian Congo?   Clearly you have no clue what occurred there and need to at least read the Wikipedia entry before coming back to talk at the grown-ups table
  • ClavellBCMI: pkjun: wakizashi: capt.snicklefritz: What_Would_Jimi_Do: It isn't like Africans enslaved other Africans and then brokered them to whites. Nope.

    Get a load of this asshole.

    Right?!  I mean everyone knows blacks don't have the agency to do these sorts of things.  Only the white man can profit from pain.  The world was filled with noble savages before the white man enslaved and killed everyone.  It is to laugh

    What's cool is that neither of you have the slightest inkling of an idea of why people hate King Leopold, but you felt the need to chime in with your thoughts anyway.

    I knew why people hated King Leopold II of Belgium long before this. He was one of the most contemptible European monarchs ever, and earned every bit of the hate sent his way. After his army conquered the place, it became his own private property, and everyone (who was not a white European) living there also got declared his own private property, and he treated the people there at least as bad as any Russian noble treated their serfs... on a good day for Leopold II's slaves.


    Oh MUCH MUCh worse than that.  Even Ivan the Terrible doesn't even get CLOSE to being as cruel as Leopold.   His private army was under strict instructions to render up one hand of a rebel for each round they expended.  Since battles aren't really "one shot one kill" affairs, the "hand deficit" was made up by lopping limbs off anyone who happened to be nearby.

    Congolese were forbidden from growing their own food or foraging for it, under pain of death or  flogging, and the only way they could get even the starvation level rations Leopold gave them was by meeting increasingly impossible rubber quotas (failure to meet quota also earned you a beating or the loss of a foot)
  • Sorry, Not My Fault! My families came into the US at Ellis Island in the 1890's. All poor Polocks & Germans from Europe. So we had Nothing to do with it all.
  • ITT: Multiple fragile idiots assuming that the story is about American slavery, and jumping in all butthurt about it because "IT WASN'T ME!" and "BLACKS OWNED SLAVES TOO!" to protect their fragility.

    Makes my day watching the trash bag itself for removal.
  • wakizashi: capt.snicklefritz: What_Would_Jimi_Do: It isn't like Africans enslaved other Africans and then brokered them to whites. Nope.

    Get a load of this asshole.

    Right?!  I mean everyone knows blacks don't have the agency to do these sorts of things.  Only the white man can profit from pain.  The world was filled with noble savages before the white man enslaved and killed everyone.  It is to laugh


    The "Africans sold other Africans" canard is the last refuge of the White Supremacist.  because

    1) It's largely not True. The Majority of Slaves in the Transatlantic slave trade were captured by gangs of Portuguese or Arab salve traders who had the advantages of guns and ships and cannons which the natives did not.

    2) to the extent that Slavery existed in Africa before the Transatlantic trade; it was more akin to being a POW.   Men captured in war were taken as 'slaves" and worked for a few years before they were freed, and usually settled down with a nice girl from their new village.  It's primary function seems to have been to increase genetic diversity and prevent inbreeding among tribes.  When Europeans bought slaves from African tribal chiefs by and large this is what the seller was expecting would happen.   That they would be brutally dragged 1,000's of miles away with only a 50-50 chance of surviving the trip and then be a slave for their entire lifetime and the lifetime of all their descendants wasn't something the Chiefs could comprehend until too late
  • ClavellBCMI: pkjun: wakizashi: capt.snicklefritz: What_Would_Jimi_Do: It isn't like Africans enslaved other Africans and then brokered them to whites. Nope.

    Get a load of this asshole.

    Right?!  I mean everyone knows blacks don't have the agency to do these sorts of things.  Only the white man can profit from pain.  The world was filled with noble savages before the white man enslaved and killed everyone.  It is to laugh

    What's cool is that neither of you have the slightest inkling of an idea of why people hate King Leopold, but you felt the need to chime in with your thoughts anyway.When

    I knew why people hated King Leopold II of Belgium long before this. He was one of the most contemptible European monarchs ever, and earned every bit of the hate sent his way. After his army conquered the place, it became his own private property, and everyone (who was not a white European) living there also got declared his own private property, and he treated the people there at least as bad as any Russian noble treated their serfs... on a good day for Leopold II's slaves.


    When Your behavior is so appalling that the French and the British, both at the height of their own colonialism and racism, threaten to invade your country and depose your King themselves if you don;t put an immediate end to what's going on...welll you've crossed EVERY Line
  • Excelsior: The unusual thing about Belgium and Congo is that the Congo wasn't treated as a 'standard' European colony, but as the overseas personal property of the Belgian king himself.

    And even among colonies, Congo was probably the most brutal one of all.  Large-scale institutionalized kidnapping of children as forced laborers, which chopping off hands and other body parts as standard punishment for pretty much anything, including failure to meet quotas.


    Leopold was literally the guy for whom the term "crimes against humanity" was coined.
    In the 19th century.
    By other colony holding states.
    -
    I can't think of a better person to stop glorifying than a guy who exterminated more humans than Hitler and Pol Pot combined, and did it all without modern automation, communication, weapons, or technology.
  • Magorn: The "Africans sold other Africans" canard is the last refuge of the White Supremacist.  because


    Also the nation of Benin which was a major player in the African slave trade has fully acknowledged its role and made apologies and is not shying away from its duty.  e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/w​orld/a​frica/an-african-country-reckons-with-​its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/​29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79d​d_story.html
  • Dryad: I can't think of a better person to stop glorifying than a guy who exterminated more humans than Hitler and Pol Pot combined


    Er... care to show your math on that?
  • jso2897: White people should never have to apologize for anything.


    This very statement is racist. 

    The ONLY people who should apologize are those who do wrong

    Your racist ass is on here posting anti white shiat and most likely 100% of the white folks on this forum alone havent every done you wrong 

    But go on with your victim mentality
  • Magorn: wakizashi: capt.snicklefritz: What_Would_Jimi_Do: It isn't like Africans enslaved other Africans and then brokered them to whites. Nope.

    Get a load of this asshole.

    Right?!  I mean everyone knows blacks don't have the agency to do these sorts of things.  Only the white man can profit from pain.  The world was filled with noble savages before the white man enslaved and killed everyone.  It is to laugh

    The "Africans sold other Africans" canard is the last refuge of the White Supremacist.  because


    So you are saying that native Africans did not participate in the slave trade?
    Would it surprise you to know that I am not white?

    1) It's largely not True. The Majority of Slaves in the Transatlantic slave trade were captured by gangs of Portuguese or Arab salve traders who had the advantages of guns and ships and cannons which the natives did not.


    See above:  Also the nation of Benin which was a major player in the African slave trade has fully acknowledged its role and made apologies and is not shying away from its duty.  e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/w​orld/a​frica/an-african-country-reckons-with-​its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/​29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79d​d_story.html

    2) to the extent that Slavery existed in Africa before the Transatlantic trade; it was more akin to being a POW.   Men captured in war were taken as 'slaves" and worked for a few years before they were freed, and usually settled down with a nice girl from their new village.  It's primary function seems to have been to increase genetic diversity and prevent inbreeding among tribes.  When Europeans bought slaves from African tribal chiefs by and large this is what the seller was expecting would happen.   That they would be brutally dragged 1,000's of miles away with only a 50-50 chance of surviving the trip and then be a slave for their entire lifetime and the lifetime of all their descendants wasn't something the Chiefs could comprehend until too late

    The cognitive dissonance here is thick
  • So, one for all the folks in the US who came over from Europe before, say, 1890, to send to the Native Americans?
  • Magorn: wakizashi: capt.snicklefritz: What_Would_Jimi_Do: It isn't like Africans enslaved other Africans and then brokered them to whites. Nope.

    Get a load of this asshole.

    Right?!  I mean everyone knows blacks don't have the agency to do these sorts of things.  Only the white man can profit from pain.  The world was filled with noble savages before the white man enslaved and killed everyone.  It is to laugh

    The "Africans sold other Africans" canard is the last refuge of the White Supremacist.  because

    1) It's largely not True. The Majority of Slaves in the Transatlantic slave trade were captured by gangs of Portuguese or Arab salve traders who had the advantages of guns and ships and cannons which the natives did not.

    2) to the extent that Slavery existed in Africa before the Transatlantic trade; it was more akin to being a POW.   Men captured in war were taken as 'slaves" and worked for a few years before they were freed, and usually settled down with a nice girl from their new village.  It's primary function seems to have been to increase genetic diversity and prevent inbreeding among tribes.  When Europeans bought slaves from African tribal chiefs by and large this is what the seller was expecting would happen.   That they would be brutally dragged 1,000's of miles away with only a 50-50 chance of surviving the trip and then be a slave for their entire lifetime and the lifetime of all their descendants wasn't something the Chiefs could comprehend until too late


    I hate those salve traders, jacking up the price of Vaporub and Tiger Balm. Heartless bastards.
  • Some people pick the worst farking hills to die on.
  • Belgium? I thought this was going to be about the treatment of American Indians.
    OK, Yeah, Leopold was terrible too.

    geggam: jso2897: White people should never have to apologize for anything.

    This very statement is racist. 

    The ONLY people who should apologize are those who do wrong

    Your racist ass is on here posting anti white shiat and most likely 100% of the white folks on this forum alone havent every done you wrong 

    But go on with your victim mentality


    Give it a rest. EVERYONE does stuff that's wrong. It's part of being human. However, it's mostly white people who refuse to admit when they've done something wrong and apologize.
  • NotARocketScientist: However, it's mostly white people who refuse to admit when they've done something wrong and apologize.


    Racist statement
  • Elegy: joker420: All slaves that came from Africa were owned by a black man first, BTW

    Phhhhtttt, the Belgians were too morally just for slavery. They were too busy instilling Christian values and lifting up the local culture to be as refined and elevated as the white man to mess with slaves.
    [...]
    (Some things are worse than slavery. The blatant genocide in the Belgian Congo was one of these things.)


    Fine distinctions may matter.

    The Congo Free State (personal property of Leopold II as approved by the Great Powers) ended in 1908. The genocide as described here supposedly ended with it.

    The Belgian Congo (under the control of the Belgian government, parliament and judiciary) ran from 1908 until exactly 60 years ago, 30 June 1960. It had all the trappings of a colony including racism, forced religion and organized robbery, but no evidence of genocide.

    / not sure what to apologize for first
    // Belgian but never very proud of it
  • ZaphodTheSmall: Elegy: joker420: All slaves that came from Africa were owned by a black man first, BTW

    Phhhhtttt, the Belgians were too morally just for slavery. They were too busy instilling Christian values and lifting up the local culture to be as refined and elevated as the white man to mess with slaves.
    [...]
    (Some things are worse than slavery. The blatant genocide in the Belgian Congo was one of these things.)

    Fine distinctions may matter.

    The Congo Free State (personal property of Leopold II as approved by the Great Powers) ended in 1908. The genocide as described here supposedly ended with it.

    The Belgian Congo (under the control of the Belgian government, parliament and judiciary) ran from 1908 until exactly 60 years ago, 30 June 1960. It had all the trappings of a colony including racism, forced religion and organized robbery, but no evidence of genocide.

    / not sure what to apologize for first
    // Belgian but never very proud of it


    Nothing. Your country is responsible. You personally are not. Therefore any apology would be dishonest.
  • "There's a whole generation of younger people in Belgium who have nothing to do with colonialism, and who are willing to question the colonial past," Stanard said.

    Hah, except for, you know, living in a country whose public works were built using the "Builder King's" blood-soaked profits, and whose public treasury was stuffed to the brim with extracted Congolese wealth.

    But yeah, other than the entire society you occupy, you guys have nothing to do with colonialism. "We're cool, right Africa?"

    Fark user imageView Full Size
  • BigNumber12: "There's a whole generation of younger people in Belgium who have nothing to do with colonialism, and who are willing to question the colonial past," Stanard said.

    Hah, except for, you know, living in a country whose public works were built using the "Builder King's" blood-soaked profits, and whose public treasury was stuffed to the brim with extracted Congolese wealth.

    But yeah, other than the entire society you occupy, you guys have nothing to do with colonialism. "We're cool, right Africa?"

    [Fark user image 573x379]


    Not so much.  Leopold considered the Congo his PERSONAL property and all it's profits flowed into his personal bank account, not the Public treasury, And, in fact when he was finally forced to relinquish the Congo under threat fo British and French Invasion,  he forced Belgium to fork over the then astronomical sum of 215 million francs  (figure about 500 hundred billion dollars today) to buy him out
  • Magorn: BigNumber12: "There's a whole generation of younger people in Belgium who have nothing to do with colonialism, and who are willing to question the colonial past," Stanard said.

    Hah, except for, you know, living in a country whose public works were built using the "Builder King's" blood-soaked profits, and whose public treasury was stuffed to the brim with extracted Congolese wealth.

    But yeah, other than the entire society you occupy, you guys have nothing to do with colonialism. "We're cool, right Africa?"

    [Fark user image 573x379]

    Not so much.  Leopold considered the Congo his PERSONAL property and all it's profits flowed into his personal bank account, not the Public treasury, And, in fact when he was finally forced to relinquish the Congo under threat fo British and French Invasion,  he forced Belgium to fork over the then astronomical sum of 215 million francs  (figure about 500 hundred billion dollars today) to buy him out


    "Thinking of the future after his death, Leopold did not want the collection of estates, lands and heritage buildings he had privately amassed to be scattered among his daughters, each of whom was married to a foreign prince. In 1900, he created the Royal Trust, by means of which he donated most of his property to the Belgian nation. This preserved them to beautify Belgium in perpetuity, while still allowing future generations of the Belgian royal family the privilege of their use."
  • mrschwen: ZaphodTheSmall: Elegy: joker420: All slaves that came from Africa were owned by a black man first, BTW

    Phhhhtttt, the Belgians were too morally just for slavery. They were too busy instilling Christian values and lifting up the local culture to be as refined and elevated as the white man to mess with slaves.
    [...]
    (Some things are worse than slavery. The blatant genocide in the Belgian Congo was one of these things.)

    Fine distinctions may matter.

    The Congo Free State (personal property of Leopold II as approved by the Great Powers) ended in 1908. The genocide as described here supposedly ended with it.

    The Belgian Congo (under the control of the Belgian government, parliament and judiciary) ran from 1908 until exactly 60 years ago, 30 June 1960. It had all the trappings of a colony including racism, forced religion and organized robbery, but no evidence of genocide.

    / not sure what to apologize for first
    // Belgian but never very proud of it

    Nothing. Your country is responsible. You personally are not. Therefore any apology would be dishonest.


    Maybe not criminally liable, but there are other kinds of responsibility.

    Let me start small.

    In the school year 1975-1976 my history book contained a sentence that would translate (from Dutch) roughly as: "On his death the King donated the Congo to Belgium". I apologize for continuing to believe that blatant lie until well past the age where I started to have access to better sources.
  • dereksmalls: If you haven't read King Leopold's Ghost, prepare to be shocked.
    Not only did King Leo rape and pillage to his heart's content, but when he was done, he had the audacity to sell what was left of the Congo to Belgium.


    ...and then burned all the records of what occurred there.

    "I will give them my Congo, but they have no right to know what I did there." - Leopold II

    / I just finished that book this afternoon.
  • ZaphodTheSmall: / not sure what to apologize for first
    // Belgian but never very proud of it


    And here I was thinking I was the resident snarky Belgian on Fark.

    Seriously though, as I said in the previous thread on this, I can't even snark about it. It's a royal (in both senses of the word) clusterfark. Albert II should have made a public apology 10 years ago on their 50th. Even then it was already overdue.

    ZaphodTheSmall: In the school year 1975-1976 my history book contained a sentence that would translate (from Dutch) roughly as: "On his death the King donated the Congo to Belgium". I apologize for continuing to believe that blatant lie until well past the age where I started to have access to better sources.


    I'm from a later generation (born in 1983) and I can't really remember anything about it from the history lessons. I usually have a good memory and I have friends from (back then still in) Rwanda so it would've hit close to home and stuck. It seems not much attention was given to it, probably didn't help in this regard that I went to a catholic school.
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