Comments

  • Interesting game. The only way to win is to stay home.
  • What part of "reach out and touch someone" did you not get?
  • The sheer number of "careless grunt gets everyone killed" - like an unlocked gate leading to the fall of Constantinople - should suggest that a goal of 100% compliance from 100% of troops is impossible, and that relying on it makes failure inevitable.

    Would it make more sense to have the ability to add "garbage" data to the mix? Like, say you have a 3mi x 3mi base in the middle of nowhere (so, no other buildings are around). Instead of trusting the force to keep their phones off to make sure no little dots appear on our enemy's Map of Stuff We'd Like to Explode, if there was instead a solid blob of dots in a 20mi x 20mi area (or 100mi x 100mi - however big it needs to be, assuming it doesn't need to be, like, the size of Spain), the enemy's left with the choice to either blanket the whole area in artillery fire (which is costly and not likely to be incredibly effective - you're emptying several machine gun mags into the side of a building hoping to hit the coffee cup on one specific guy's desk), or they'll have to confirm where in the larger area it is (which requires better sensing of the area, possibly putting troops/materiel at risk; same as it was before you saw those dots).
  • Russian troops are proving that cell phones in war zones are a very bad idea


    I think from what we have seen so far, just having Russian troops in a war zone is a bad idea.
  • Dial D for Death.

    Dial S for Sniper.

    Dial M for Missile.

    Dial B for Bomb.
  • Dr Dreidel: The sheer number of "careless grunt gets everyone killed" - like an unlocked gate leading to the fall of Constantinople - should suggest that a goal of 100% compliance from 100% of troops is impossible, and that relying on it makes failure inevitable.

    Would it make more sense to have the ability to add "garbage" data to the mix? Like, say you have a 3mi x 3mi base in the middle of nowhere (so, no other buildings are around). Instead of trusting the force to keep their phones off to make sure no little dots appear on our enemy's Map of Stuff We'd Like to Explode, if there was instead a solid blob of dots in a 20mi x 20mi area (or 100mi x 100mi - however big it needs to be, assuming it doesn't need to be, like, the size of Spain), the enemy's left with the choice to either blanket the whole area in artillery fire (which is costly and not likely to be incredibly effective - you're emptying several machine gun mags into the side of a building hoping to hit the coffee cup on one specific guy's desk), or they'll have to confirm where in the larger area it is (which requires better sensing of the area, possibly putting troops/materiel at risk; same as it was before you saw those dots).


    Interesting.  Just load the area up with little cell transmitters for digital camo, as it were.  I wonder if anything like that is being considered, I imagine that's something that could be done. Probably even by drone.
  • Tchernobog: Interesting.  Just load the area up with little cell transmitters for digital camo, as it were.  I wonder if anything like that is being considered, I imagine that's something that could be done. Probably even by drone.


    I was thinking at the software level - not a bunch of physical dummy transmitters, more like a software to generate fake pings to/traffic for towers in the area. I guess it depends whatever's cheapest (or whether some brass knows a guy with an almost-proof-of-concept that they can sell for 50x its worth for a little kickback).

    // or, like, real towers which only exist to generate that fake traffic (didn't US cops do something like this in reverse? homebrew cell "towers" that would scrape user data while sending the traffic around, something like that?)
    // but my knowledge of cell networking is even smaller than my knowledge of computer networking - and THAT's only a cut or two above the layman's understanding
  • Dr Dreidel: The sheer number of "careless grunt gets everyone killed" - like an unlocked gate leading to the fall of Constantinople - should suggest that a goal of 100% compliance from 100% of troops is impossible, and that relying on it makes failure inevitable.

    Would it make more sense to have the ability to add "garbage" data to the mix? Like, say you have a 3mi x 3mi base in the middle of nowhere (so, no other buildings are around). Instead of trusting the force to keep their phones off to make sure no little dots appear on our enemy's Map of Stuff We'd Like to Explode, if there was instead a solid blob of dots in a 20mi x 20mi area (or 100mi x 100mi - however big it needs to be, assuming it doesn't need to be, like, the size of Spain), the enemy's left with the choice to either blanket the whole area in artillery fire (which is costly and not likely to be incredibly effective - you're emptying several machine gun mags into the side of a building hoping to hit the coffee cup on one specific guy's desk), or they'll have to confirm where in the larger area it is (which requires better sensing of the area, possibly putting troops/materiel at risk; same as it was before you saw those dots).


    Stop giving them ideas..
    Anyways, this is the sort of stuff an advanced army would have already thought of. I'm not sure why Russia seems to have no opsec whatsoever right now. I'm guessing the smart guys might be purposefully bad at their job??
  • >Ukrainian special services automatically receive information with the ID number of the device, roaming number, and, of course, the location of the person," Starosiek told Task & Purpose. "Fortunately, Russians are quite naive and ignorant about using mobile devices, so they often call home, turning on their phones and connecting to the Ukrainian stations."

    What they need is a follow-up service to call the last number that connected to that phone and ask them who they were talking to so Ukraine knows how to reach out to next-of-kin to notify them of the death.  After a random delay so the Russians don't wise up to the cell phone = death thingy.
  • Dr Dreidel: Tchernobog: Interesting.  Just load the area up with little cell transmitters for digital camo, as it were.  I wonder if anything like that is being considered, I imagine that's something that could be done. Probably even by drone.

    I was thinking at the software level - not a bunch of physical dummy transmitters, more like a software to generate fake pings to/traffic for towers in the area. I guess it depends whatever's cheapest (or whether some brass knows a guy with an almost-proof-of-concept that they can sell for 50x its worth for a little kickback).

    // or, like, real towers which only exist to generate that fake traffic (didn't US cops do something like this in reverse? homebrew cell "towers" that would scrape user data while sending the traffic around, something like that?)
    // but my knowledge of cell networking is even smaller than my knowledge of computer networking - and THAT's only a cut or two above the layman's understanding


    You're thinking Stingrays for the cop thing.

    It depends on how they're getting the location data. If they're just reading the GPS coordinates out of the data stream, then that can be spoofed at the software level. If they're relying on tower triangulation, you can spoof that IF you have access to the tower datasets (Maybe). On the other hand, if they're just relying on an old-fashioned Direction-Finding equipment (Like the RC-12 Guardrail), you'll need actual radios sending signals in the empty spaces. And they can't just be broadcasting dead air or they'll be easily filtered out, so you'll need a punch of radios broadcasting recordings.
  • MindStalker: Dr Dreidel: The sheer number of "careless grunt gets everyone killed" - like an unlocked gate leading to the fall of Constantinople - should suggest that a goal of 100% compliance from 100% of troops is impossible, and that relying on it makes failure inevitable.

    Would it make more sense to have the ability to add "garbage" data to the mix? Like, say you have a 3mi x 3mi base in the middle of nowhere (so, no other buildings are around). Instead of trusting the force to keep their phones off to make sure no little dots appear on our enemy's Map of Stuff We'd Like to Explode, if there was instead a solid blob of dots in a 20mi x 20mi area (or 100mi x 100mi - however big it needs to be, assuming it doesn't need to be, like, the size of Spain), the enemy's left with the choice to either blanket the whole area in artillery fire (which is costly and not likely to be incredibly effective - you're emptying several machine gun mags into the side of a building hoping to hit the coffee cup on one specific guy's desk), or they'll have to confirm where in the larger area it is (which requires better sensing of the area, possibly putting troops/materiel at risk; same as it was before you saw those dots).

    Stop giving them ideas..
    Anyways, this is the sort of stuff an advanced army would have already thought of. I'm not sure why Russia seems to have no opsec whatsoever right now. I'm guessing the smart guys might be purposefully bad at their job??


    The Russian army is a lot of unhappy conscripts who in most cases doesn't want to be there, so getting them to follow rules is almost impossible unless you're pointing a gun at their back (which is likely how they got the troops there in the first place, especially after the first wave).  At this point, it's about as likely to get them to stop using their cell phones as it is to stop looting.
  • Bootleg: It depends on how they're getting the location data. If they're just reading the GPS coordinates out of the data stream, then that can be spoofed at the software level. If they're relying on tower triangulation, you can spoof that IF you have access to the tower datasets (Maybe). On the other hand, if they're just relying on an old-fashioned Direction-Finding equipment (Like the RC-12 Guardrail), you'll need actual radios sending signals in the empty spaces. And they can't just be broadcasting dead air or they'll be easily filtered out, so you'll need a punch of radios broadcasting recordings.


    As far as signal (this is just a guy who can't sleep conjecturing on the internet, but): a bunch of bots calling each other at random and playing audio from a library of YouTube vids (or public-domain tracks) for random lengths of time (say, 5 seconds to ~100 minutes - and I'm assuming the cell networks aren't insecure enough to let them actually listen in on calls).

    For the hardware, I guess... solar powered mini-radios blanketed over the area? Is that even feasible? (For the not-always-sunny areas, wind availability generally increases as solar decreases, so would mini-windmills work that way to generate enough power for this application, even if we need a smallish battery to store some charge?)

    // MindStalker, if the Russian military (or the US, for that matter) is getting R&D ideas from random news threads on the internet, I'd say we have bigger problems than opsec
  • Modern cell phone systems coordinate lots of position date to predict how busy a cell will be.  The cell tower will have a good idea of the bearing within a tens of degrees and is likely to have a decent idea of the range depending how how stable the signal is.  Triangulate between a few sites and the data will be good enough for artillery.  The range falls off faster at higher frequencies and most towers now use lots so they can get range and speed.

    Many cell towers now use a central phone and data switching computer and they send the signals over fiber optic links to the towers that just have optical to radio converters.  Those central systems have a very good idea where the phone is and how it is moving to predict which antenna and what frequency it should talk to next.  In rural areas, those systems often can cover 50 miles/80 km away from one central system.

    Then there is the assisted gps where the phone sends a list of cell sites (well sector antennas these days) it can see and their relative strength.  Some systems also send the last known good coordinates too.  There are SUPL server proxys that will let you see just how creepy your phone is.
  • Dr Dreidel: I'm assuming the cell networks aren't insecure enough to let them actually listen in on calls


    I wouldn't take that bet if you are talking about the owners of the towers, who can turn off encryption support if they wish and your phone will happily comply.

    There are also devices that can crack most cell phone encryption methods even if you don't own the tower... but Ukraine owns the towers.

    Still, let's say they can't listen to the calls.  What they still can do is triangulate your position, note that it is behind current Russian lines, and that the destination is another cell within Russian-held territory or back to Russia itself.  That's enough information to determine a Russian invader is using your network, from where, and to delivery a helpful package very quickly to their position.
  • Dr Dreidel: The sheer number of "careless grunt gets everyone killed" - like an unlocked gate leading to the fall of Constantinople - should suggest that a goal of 100% compliance from 100% of troops is impossible, and that relying on it makes failure inevitable.

    Would it make more sense to have the ability to add "garbage" data to the mix? Like, say you have a 3mi x 3mi base in the middle of nowhere (so, no other buildings are around). Instead of trusting the force to keep their phones off to make sure no little dots appear on our enemy's Map of Stuff We'd Like to Explode, if there was instead a solid blob of dots in a 20mi x 20mi area (or 100mi x 100mi - however big it needs to be, assuming it doesn't need to be, like, the size of Spain), the enemy's left with the choice to either blanket the whole area in artillery fire (which is costly and not likely to be incredibly effective - you're emptying several machine gun mags into the side of a building hoping to hit the coffee cup on one specific guy's desk), or they'll have to confirm where in the larger area it is (which requires better sensing of the area, possibly putting troops/materiel at risk; same as it was before you saw those dots).


    Counterpoint: loitering observation drones can pinpoint everything anyway.
  • Tchernobog: Dr Dreidel: The sheer number of "careless grunt gets everyone killed" - like an unlocked gate leading to the fall of Constantinople - should suggest that a goal of 100% compliance from 100% of troops is impossible, and that relying on it makes failure inevitable.

    Would it make more sense to have the ability to add "garbage" data to the mix? Like, say you have a 3mi x 3mi base in the middle of nowhere (so, no other buildings are around). Instead of trusting the force to keep their phones off to make sure no little dots appear on our enemy's Map of Stuff We'd Like to Explode, if there was instead a solid blob of dots in a 20mi x 20mi area (or 100mi x 100mi - however big it needs to be, assuming it doesn't need to be, like, the size of Spain), the enemy's left with the choice to either blanket the whole area in artillery fire (which is costly and not likely to be incredibly effective - you're emptying several machine gun mags into the side of a building hoping to hit the coffee cup on one specific guy's desk), or they'll have to confirm where in the larger area it is (which requires better sensing of the area, possibly putting troops/materiel at risk; same as it was before you saw those dots).

    Interesting.  Just load the area up with little cell transmitters for digital camo, as it were.  I wonder if anything like that is being considered, I imagine that's something that could be done. Probably even by drone.


    So... at the end of a bitterly-fought series of battles over a particular swath of dirt, the local survivors have to dig through successive layers of tiny electronic spoof devices? I wonder if they could be recycled and sold?
  • That same "vulnerability" could be used as an asset to trick Ukrainians into attacking where they want them to attack.  But what do you expect from ignorant orcs?
  • natazha: Interesting game. The only way to win is to stay home.


    The only way to win is using a real computer with a real OS and a real KB/mouse and a real display with a real sound system

    Smart phones are kiddie toys that track you
  • Mouser: What part of "reach out and touch someone" did you not get?


    Reach out and spy on someone
  • Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Russian troops are proving that cell phones in war zones are a very bad idea


    I think from what we have seen so far, just having Russian troops in a war zone is a bad idea.


    War zones are bad ideas

    Unless u r safe at home and own defense stocks......
  • TheMysteriousStranger: Dial D for Death.

    Dial S for Sniper.

    Dial M for Missile.

    Dial B for Bomb.


    Dial M for middle class and lower doing all the fighting and dying
  • DON.MAC: Modern cell phone systems coordinate lots of position date to predict how busy a cell will be.  The cell tower will have a good idea of the bearing within a tens of degrees and is likely to have a decent idea of the range depending how how stable the signal is.  Triangulate between a few sites and the data will be good enough for artillery.  The range falls off faster at higher frequencies and most towers now use lots so they can get range and speed.

    Many cell towers now use a central phone and data switching computer and they send the signals over fiber optic links to the towers that just have optical to radio converters.  Those central systems have a very good idea where the phone is and how it is moving to predict which antenna and what frequency it should talk to next.  In rural areas, those systems often can cover 50 miles/80 km away from one central system.

    Then there is the assisted gps where the phone sends a list of cell sites (well sector antennas these days) it can see and their relative strength.  Some systems also send the last known good coordinates too.  There are SUPL server proxys that will let you see just how creepy your phone is.


    Copper is nice
  • MindStalker: Dr Dreidel: The sheer number of "careless grunt gets everyone killed" - like an unlocked gate leading to the fall of Constantinople - should suggest that a goal of 100% compliance from 100% of troops is impossible, and that relying on it makes failure inevitable.

    Would it make more sense to have the ability to add "garbage" data to the mix? Like, say you have a 3mi x 3mi base in the middle of nowhere (so, no other buildings are around). Instead of trusting the force to keep their phones off to make sure no little dots appear on our enemy's Map of Stuff We'd Like to Explode, if there was instead a solid blob of dots in a 20mi x 20mi area (or 100mi x 100mi - however big it needs to be, assuming it doesn't need to be, like, the size of Spain), the enemy's left with the choice to either blanket the whole area in artillery fire (which is costly and not likely to be incredibly effective - you're emptying several machine gun mags into the side of a building hoping to hit the coffee cup on one specific guy's desk), or they'll have to confirm where in the larger area it is (which requires better sensing of the area, possibly putting troops/materiel at risk; same as it was before you saw those dots).

    Stop giving them ideas..
    Anyways, this is the sort of stuff an advanced army would have already thought of. I'm not sure why Russia seems to have no opsec whatsoever right now. I'm guessing the smart guys might be purposefully bad at their job??


    Modern army?  Try Darius the Great: https://quizzclub.com/trivia/what-is-a-persian-donkey/answer/105602/

    /sorry for the crappy source but you get the idea
  • Priapetic: MindStalker: Dr Dreidel:
    Stop giving them ideas..
    Anyways, this is the sort of stuff an advanced army would have already thought of. I'm not sure why Russia seems to have no opsec whatsoever right now. I'm guessing the smart guys might be purposefully bad at their job??

    Modern army?  Try Darius the Great: https://quizzclub.com/trivia/what-is-a-persian-donkey/answer/105602/

    /sorry for the crappy source but you get the idea


    Note, I said advanced, not modern.
  • Mouser: What part of "reach out and touch someone" did you not get?


    Fark user imageView Full Size

    /if a meme is dank, a man is not only right to steal it, he is obligated to do so.
  • Load 7 of 7 newer comments
  •  

This thread is closed to new comments.


Close