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  • But the extent of the executions had apparently been overestimated. For instance British historian Antony Beevor cites over 13,000 executed Red Army soldiers in Stalingrad alone. By contrast, documents discovered in Russian archives show that there had been fewer than 300 executions by mid-October 1942.

    I'm not inclined to trust Russian records on this issue, but the argument on the next page that Russian soldiers disliked Germans without NKVD guns to their heads also has some force to it.

    I used to be into wargaming, the cardboard kind. The German side was typically considered more fun to play. Lots of players wondered "why didn't Germany conquer the world?" when their tanks, planes, and uniforms were so cool. I read some of the history books. In 1941 German forces rolled into Ukraine where they were expected to be greeted as liberators from Stalin's genocide. Except the news leaking out was not a tale of heroic liberation. The neutral powers were reminded that the German armies were following orders of a genocidal madman. Turkey decided not to answer the German calls for assistance. Likewise Spain, but that was more war-weariness after the civil war than disgust at Hitler.

    (Wikipedia tells me 20,000 Ukranians did join the German forces, despite Hitler.)
  • I'm reading Beevor's book on Stalingrad right now. It's amazing how horrible it was, and yet how unremarkable in the context of the Eastern Front. It was remarkable only for its scope, not its brutality.
  • Slow loading, but interesting pics Link
  • Thank you for greenlighting this. While its perfectly fine (as it should be) to talk about about how one city of steel, Detroit saved the world from Hitler, it is still not too kosher to talk in the USA openly about how the Soviets also saved the world from Hitler at that other city of steel, Stalingrad.
  • The Ost battalions in Normandy were ready to surrender as soon they could frag their Sargents.
  • Just finished a book about this, so . . .
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    I remember watching this in eighth grade. Incredible series. This and the BBC series The World at War.
  • There was no mercy on the eastern front. Stalin's General Order No. 1 was just the start.
  • i.adultswim.comView Full Size


    Knows brutal when he hears it and agrees

  • DamnYankees: I'm reading Beevor's book on Stalingrad right now. It's amazing how horrible it was, and yet how unremarkable in the context of the Eastern Front. It was remarkable only for its scope, not its brutality.


    Very good choice!
  • Everyone should listen to the 4-part series of Hardcore History on this subject, Ghosts of the Ostfront. It's brilliant.
  • Considering the landscape is still littered with bones that crunch under your boots there's no way it's sugar coated.
  • The greatest generation was the greatest at ... killing their fellow man.
  • wildcardjack: Considering the landscape is still littered with bones that crunch under your boots there's no way it's sugar coated.


    It's not the body count they're debating, it's the fine details.
  • we met in an office
    with the union dissolving
    where you found no architect
    no figurehead worth absolving
  • DamnYankees: I'm reading Beevor's book on Stalingrad right now. It's amazing how horrible it was, and yet how unremarkable in the context of the Eastern Front. It was remarkable only for its scope, not its brutality.


    I read that a few years back. Amazing book. Anyone who is interested in WWII should read that book. The detail and photos used are the best.
  • The Dogs of War: DamnYankees: I'm reading Beevor's book on Stalingrad right now. It's amazing how horrible it was, and yet how unremarkable in the context of the Eastern Front. It was remarkable only for its scope, not its brutality.

    I read that a few years back. Amazing book. Anyone who is interested in WWII should read that book. The detail and photos used are the best.


    I'm actually finding it a bit of a slog. He's not a great storyteller. It's a very dry recitation of facts. Thorough, but its only interesting to me because of the subject matter, and not the writing.
  • I once watched a televised lecture about the Russian experience during WWII or, as they call it, The Great Patriotic War, which was for them a separate and greater conflict. The lecturer briefly talked about the movie Enemy at the Gates, about how it was reasonably accurate for a Hollywood movie except that everyone was way too fat.
  • DamnYankees: Everyone should listen to the 4-part series of Hardcore History on this subject, Ghosts of the Ostfront. It's brilliant.


    You beat me to it for this Eastern front thread. It's the most frightning and brilliant series I've ever listened to.
  • Wouldn't mind hearing tales/stories/interviews with veterans from Kursk.
  • No one who knows anything about Stalingrad thinks it was anything but the worst. Who suppressed what?
  • Wow, there's some solid gold derp in the comments. Something about God punishing anti-semites after letting them run with their plans for a while. Of course, in the process, God lets the Jews get punished too, so I have no idea what the commenter was smoking.
  • Phil Moskowitz: No one who knows anything about Stalingrad thinks it was anything but the worst. Who suppressed what?


    At this point I actually think the Siege of Leningrad is becoming underrated as a horror - Stalingrad seems to be pretty well known.
  • The final hideout of the commander of the German 6th Army resembled a latrine. "The filth and human excrement and who knows what else was piled up waist-high"

    Enema at the Gates?
  • So is this thread where Americans learn that the Soviet Union won WW2?

    Because that's what happened.
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