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  • The next question is, are the new statistics accurate or trimmed to make the cameras look better? Among the techniques used previously: only report accidents with both cars over the stop bar (eliminating approach accidents), only report accidents coded as "red light running," lie, apply inapplicable corrections (like taking a list of injury accidents and throwing out rear-enders because they don't usually cause injury).
  • But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.
  • Only problem is the rear ends and the property damage is all private while the revenue generated is all going to the guberment. There is no incentive for the guberment to change.


    guberment
  • Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


    I just had to get wordy....
  • But hey, the cameras make the roads SAFER.
  • FTFA:
    "And O'Scanlon argued the program has changed drivers' behavior in a negative way.

    "What we are doing is making people paranoid - causing them to slam on the brakes at the slightest hint a light might change, or deciding to fail to make even an absolutely safe right turn on red," he said."


    Paging Mr. Romero...
  • No, the real question is how many countless lives have actually been saved by this. Consider this scenario:

    Bobby Ericson, 9, is playing in his yard. He kicks the softball and runs out into the street to retrieve it. What he doesn't know is that Douglas Macavoy, 34, is speeding up the residential street, which has a 25-mile-per-hour limit, at 43 miles per hour. Mr. Macavoy is going that fast because he just finished running the red light at the previous intersection, which had started turning yellow even as he approached it. However, seeing no camera on the pole, he floored the accelerator and ran the light. Now, as he rounds the Pete's Plumbing van parked on the curve, he's shocked to find little sandy-haired Bobby crouching in the street right in front of him. And, splat, just like that, two lives are irreparably destroyed -- Bobby is paralyzed from the neck down for the rest of his life. Mr. Macavoy is in jail. His wife leaves him after a few months after starting an affair with his probation officer. She takes his children. Despondent, alone, he attempts to take his own life by jumping out a window in a ramshackle motel, but he lands on a pedestrian and breaks her neck. Now he's in jail again, only for murder this time. And all he can think on those long nights as he's gripped in Bubba's sweaty embrace is: If only I had stopped for that light. If only there had been a camera, I would have stopped for that life.

    Would you seriously, subby, weigh a little bit of property damage, a bent fender, against these two shattered lives. What's one million dollars when compared to infinite suffering and shattered lives? Next time, remember Mr. Macavoy's sad tale before you post.
  • Replace them all with roundabouts!

    //runs
  • tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

    //runs


    I love roundabouts.

    That is all.
  • Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


    Yup. Around here (AZ) I watch idiots tap their brakes on green lights "just in case" it's about to turn yellow. I had to do an emergency stop from 50mph because the yellow at a particular intersection isn't long enough (no surprise there either).
  • Pocket Ninja: Would you seriously, subby, weigh a little bit of property damage, a bent fender, against these two shattered lives. What's one million dollars when compared to infinite suffering and shattered lives? Next time, remember Mr. Macavoy's sad tale before you post.


    PN delivers.
  • tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

    //runs


    Works for me. There are several still in use near here (Along NY6 and the Palisades Pkwy) I remember the ones in Wayne on Route 23 too. They worked amazingly well considering that they were full of NJ drivers.

    They'd work even better if driver education and training in the USA wasn't such a farking joke.
  • Revenue boost *and* localized economic stimulus? Brilliant!
  • Increase in rear collision because people are driving to fast, but how many seriously accidents have been reduced? (T-bones, etc)

    No no that would hint at the red light cameras working, and we can't have that here on Fark.
  • Eddie Adams from Torrance: tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

    //runs

    Works for me. There are several still in use near here (Along NY6 and the Palisades Pkwy) I remember the ones in Wayne on Route 23 too. They worked amazingly well considering that they were full of NJ drivers.

    They'd work even better if driver education and training in the USA wasn't such a farking joke.


    Whatter y'all talk'in about?? We has NASCAR!!!
  • PocketNinja improves my day.

    And is it bad that I took his tale as a reason why we should allow more speeding to teach kids to stay out of the street?

    I think all the time on the politics tab is blackening my heart.
  • So.... people shouldn't follow too closely?

    Problem solved.

    (You shouldn't run red lights... it's dangerous)
  • Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


    Follow the money, it leads you to the answer almost every time.
  • Snarfangel: But collisions are paid for by drivers and insurance companies, while government gets that sweet camera loot.


    Except rear-end collisions (which tend to be low speed) are up massively and total collisions (including T-bone crashes, the ones that tend to be high speed) are down so there is only a very slight climb in total collisions. Fewer bad crashes, slightly more less minor collisions.

    I'll bet you any money the number of people hospitalised has fallen.
  • Slaxl: tallguywithglasseson: Replace them all with roundabouts!

    //runs

    I love roundabouts.

    That is all.


    Me too! Feeling the roundabouts love in this thread
  • Putting aside the issue of whether or not cameras are good, people who slam on their brakes and cause a collision because of red light cameras ARE FARKING IDIOTS.

    Do you really think risking the destruction of your car and your health is worth it to avoid a petty ticket? Grow a brain, morans.
  • ZAZ: like taking a list of injury accidents and throwing out rear-enders because they don't usually cause injury


    Sorry, but if your concern is the safety of human beings, then it is not inapplicable to remove accidents that don't cause injury.
  • Sadly, red light cameras are a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Sure, we can all agree that running red lights is bad, but it's nowhere near an epidemic and a vast, vast majority of drivers stop for red lights. When it happens, something awful may result, but it's also like saying that sometimes airplanes crash, so we should outlaw airplanes. Statistically, red-light running is a non-event.

    However, it is BIG money and a cause the public will blindly get behind. Never mind that it changes the dynamics of accidents around the light and that they are specifically designed to cause MORE people to run red lights (and thus drive up revenue).

    It's a money grab, pure and simple. There are no statistics in favor of red light cameras except those the companies supply to municipalities telling them about the money they can collect from them.
  • Drakin020: Increase in rear collision because people are driving to fast, but how many seriously accidents have been reduced? (T-bones, etc)

    No no that would hint at the red light cameras working, and we can't have that here on Fark.


    None. Literally none. We're only considering drivers who are coherent enough to realize there's a camera, right? It doesn't deter people from running it after 2 seconds after the light turns red, as the cameras stop taking pictures around that time. Those who run the light under 2 seconds after it turns red don't t-bone cars, as they haven't had enough time to get that far into it. Satisfied? No reasonable person proposes that red light cameras have literally any effect on t-bone accidents.
  • Anyone who is surprised, raise your hand... so I can slap you.

    I have personally witnessed this phenomena since the red light cameras have been installed in my area. Hell, I feel a quick twinge of anxiety every time a light goes yellow just before I cross the line, and I have above average driving and riding capabilities thanks to race experience. I can comprehend, from a psychological point of view, why average joe or jane stomps the brakes and skids to a stop - because they aren't good at what they're doing and can't judge whether they'll cross that line before the light goes red. Then the person who is following too close behind or having a lapse of concentration slams into them, causing thousands in injuries and property damage over the scare provided by a $150 ticket.

    The fundamental flaw with the logic behind red light cameras is that they generate revenue when the drivers are unsafe and generate none when the drivers do what they should; this is a similar logical error to the for-profit (privatised) prisons, which make more money when more criminals exist.

    The correct way to make the roads safer is through stricter licensing requirements and more driver training, NOT punishing silly mistakes like crossing the line .10 seconds too late. The dangerous red light runners are the ones who blow it after the light has gone red and t-bone the cars that are already moving in the other lanes, not the ones that get the majority of the tickets; the guys who cross the line long before the other lights go green.
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