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  • My current belief is that George Washington was gay. I am completely serious about this. The crying thing when he was picked to lead as first president about how this would ruin him is what flags.

    But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

    /didn't read
  • Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

    /didn't read


    You basically summed up the article without reading it. I think anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the individual Fathers already knew he was a particular nasty sonofab*tch, though they certainly won't be teaching that in high school Western Civ. classes anytime soon.

    My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.
  • Were there any presidents that were not dicks?

    /Even Teddy shot dogs when girls wouldn't date him.
  • Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.


    According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.
  • dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.


    I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.
  • GAT_00: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

    According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.


    To be fair, John Adams was, by all accounts, an annoying, self-centered dude also who thought everyone was lazier than him.
  • DamnYankees: GAT_00: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

    According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.

    To be fair, John Adams was, by all accounts, an annoying, self-centered dude also who thought everyone was lazier than him.


    Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.
  • DamnYankees: dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.

    I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.


    This. Exactly. Nicely said.
  • bronyaur1: DamnYankees: dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.

    I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.

    This. Exactly. Nicely said.


    Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves. Admittedly Jefferson was more...free...with his slaves than others, he's still far from alone.
  • GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.


    Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.
  • I hate the newer nickels where he's looking right at you. Mind your own damn business, Tom.
  • DamnYankees: GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.

    Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.


    A regular slave-lover, he was.
  • dickfreckle: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

    /didn't read

    You basically summed up the article without reading it. I think anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the individual Fathers already knew he was a particular nasty sonofab*tch, though they certainly won't be teaching that in high school Western Civ. classes anytime soon.

    My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.


    Indeed. What I really hate is that the body of work is more and more often shouldered aside in favor of screaming what a blue-ribbon asshole Jefferson was.

    Okay. We get it. He was an ass. Now can we please move on?
  • DamnYankees: GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.

    Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.


    He was and wasn't. He hated slavery, but didn't want to end it for fear of mass revolts.

    there is not a man on earth who would sacrifice more than I would, to relieve us from this heavy reproach [slavery]... we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.
  • GAT_00: He was and wasn't. He hated slavery, but didn't want to end it for fear of mass revolts.


    Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.

    Jefferson is an interesting figure, and certain parts of him are admirable, but I find it a little uneasy that people tend to be willing to give his words more credence than his actions. Jefferson never did a single thing, as far as I'm aware, to end slavery. He took zero positive steps in that regards, and was not a particularly good slave-master. He abused his actual slaves, both sexually and otherwise. There's simply no reason to think he was a secret lover of black people at heart, any more than you actually believe Mitt Romney loves poor people.
  • DamnYankees: Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.


    Ok, now you're claiming to know what was in the head of a man 200 years dead and how it contradicted what he wrote. Step back from the ledge of crazy.
  • GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.


    Adams can shut his whore mouth! Franklin was unequivocally awesome.
  • GAT_00: DamnYankees: Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.

    Ok, now you're claiming to know what was in the head of a man 200 years dead and how it contradicted what he wrote. Step back from the ledge of crazy.


    I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing. I'm just looking at his actual actions.

    You're the one saying that - despite owning slaves, treating them badly, failing to free them, and failing to take any actual steps in his life towards abolition - he hated slavery in his heart. And you claim to know this because...he said so a couple time?

    Think about what you're saying, please.
  • DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing


    Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.
  • GAT_00: DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing

    Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.


    "I care about the 100%."

    I just quoted Mitt Romney. Do you believe him when he says that? I mean, you should - quoting people seems to be your standard for determining what they believe.
  • DamnYankees: GAT_00: DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing

    Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.

    "I care about the 100%."

    I just quoted Mitt Romney. Do you believe him when he says that? I mean, you should - quoting people seems to be your standard for determining what they believe.


    All right, this is going to go nowhere. This is done now.
  • GAT_00: All right, this is going to go nowhere. This is done now.


    I truly hope you don't post again in this thread, or you'll be undermining your argument that the things people write are their true feelings.
  • Jefferson was a god of his time. Compared to the rest of our founders, he was very progressive. fark all of you all who say otherwise.
  • Scott_Free: Jefferson was a god of his time. Compared to the rest of our founders, he was very progressive. fark all of you all who say otherwise.


    In what way was he more progressive than the other founders? He was certainly more eloquent, but progressive?
  • Not a bible toting biatch. He thought for himself, and shaped our country based on beliefs that were based on human principles. That for his time was very progressive.
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