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  • I've been to the crypt of St Nicholas. I keep pictures in case the kids are particularly bad one year.

    /I kid!
  • "No problem.  We'll trade you for Constantinople"
  • To paganade: e.g. trade idols.
  • I would rather ask that they give back the billions of dollars that they have bilked the world population out of with their continuing teachings of invisible sky wizards and demons poking at you with spears. Noting like using the fear of death and the unknown to make people cough up cash for God.
  • Lionel Mandrake: "No problem.  We'll trade you for Constantinople"


    ... yeah, but the papacy had absolutely nothing to do with the Crusaders softening up Constantinople for the Turks right?
  • Seth'n'Spectrum: Lionel Mandrake: "No problem.  We'll trade you for Constantinople"

    ... yeah, but the papacy had absolutely nothing to do with the Crusaders softening up Constantinople for the Turks right?


    I just want to know why it got the works.
  • How about a big, freakin' "NO!" One of the best places, if not the best place in the world for antiquities, religious and non-religious is the Vatican. If you stored something there in the 16th century, there's an excellent chance that it still will be there in the 21st century. Probably, one of the worst places for a Christian relic right now is Turkey, given the growing anti-Christian resentment there among the overwhelming Muslim majority. If the bones were to go there, I can see them "disappearing" easily. Or worse, being smashed to bits as a demonstration

    Even if you don't believe in Christianity, we are talking about our collective history here. I wouldn't send any of the Roman deity statues the Vatican has in its archives to Turkey either, for the same reason. .
  • That's a lot of farking hutzpa.

    We're talking about St. Nicholas of Smyrna here. That's Smyrna, now Izmir, which 90 years ago was emptied of its Christian population by a massacre that would take a certain Austrian corporal to outshadow. And the Turks have the nerve to ask for his bones?

    The Vatican should find out which city in Greece has the most people descended of Smyrna's Greek community, and send the bones there.
  • I can't see Turkey wearing Eddie Bauer.
  • yelmrog: Seth'n'Spectrum: Lionel Mandrake: "No problem.  We'll trade you for Constantinople"

    ... yeah, but the papacy had absolutely nothing to do with the Crusaders softening up Constantinople for the Turks right?

    I just want to know why it got the works.


    That's none of your business
  • There's nothing in Turkey but moozlim ayrab terrists. There aren't even any turkeys! Why should they have Kris Kringle's bones?
  • Weirdest white elephant gift exchange ever.
  • yelmrog: Seth'n'Spectrum: Lionel Mandrake: "No problem. We'll trade you for Constantinople"

    ... yeah, but the papacy had absolutely nothing to do with the Crusaders softening up Constantinople for the Turks right?

    I just want to know why it got the works.

    That's none of your business


    Besides, it's been a long time gone, Constantinople.
  • yelmrog: Seth'n'Spectrum: Lionel Mandrake: "No problem.  We'll trade you for Constantinople"

    ... yeah, but the papacy had absolutely nothing to do with the Crusaders softening up Constantinople for the Turks right?

    I just want to know why it got the works.


    That's nobody's business but the Turks'.
  • Seth'n'Spectrum: ... yeah, but the papacy had absolutely nothing to do with the Crusaders softening up Constantinople for the Turks right?


    Actually, the Pope ordered the Crusaders not to sack Constantinople. The order did not reach them in time.
  • travelerfolio.comView Full Size


    Seeing as how some of the muslim-y muslims have a thing for wanting to destroy stuff that isn't of islam, I'd say let them go pound sand.
  • Seth'n'Spectrum: Lionel Mandrake: "No problem.  We'll trade you for Constantinople"

    ... yeah, but the papacy had absolutely nothing to do with the Crusaders softening up Constantinople for the Turks right?


    Actually...it didn't. The Pope called a Crusade to the Holy Land. It was western Europeans nobles that decided to attack Constantinople instead.
  • Lionel Mandrake:

    "No problem.  We'll trade you for Constantinople"

    "Istanbul not Constantinople!"

    The fact of the Muslim conquests of Asia Minor and subsequent conversion of most of its people to Islam means he's no longer their saint. Islam recognizes prior prophets but especially eschews praying through intercessors, so what use would the Turks have for a saint? This is a matter of theology, not tourism or "national pride." I say give 'em the bones of St. Nick when the ulama and the Saudis allow other Peoples of the Book to make the Hajj: the Kaaba was established by Abraham, who was also a prophet for the Jews and by extension Christians, so it's only fair they also get to pay their respects. And remember, the Qu'ran says Muhammad only restored the proper practice of ages past, not that he invented them. Jews and Christians would follow the rituals of the Hajj just as Catholics follow those of Lourdes or the Jews daven at the Wailing Wall: there would be no sacrilege and need be no disruption. It is written in the Qu'ran in Hujurat 49:9 that "Allah loves the equitable," is it not?
  • hdhale: Actually...it didn't. The Pope called a Crusade to the Holy Land. It was western Europeans nobles that decided to attack Constantinople instead.


    Rockstone: Actually, the Pope ordered the Crusaders not to sack Constantinople. The order did not reach them in time.


    True, but the pope did kind of set the whole chain of events in motion and indirectly allowed the nobles to legitimate it.

    /come on, stretch with me here
  • Seth'n'Spectrum: hdhale: Actually...it didn't. The Pope called a Crusade to the Holy Land. It was western Europeans nobles that decided to attack Constantinople instead.

    Rockstone: Actually, the Pope ordered the Crusaders not to sack Constantinople. The order did not reach them in time.

    True, but the pope did kind of set the whole chain of events in motion and indirectly allowed the nobles to legitimate it.

    /come on, stretch with me here


    It wasn't his intention. The Church always considered any differences between it and the Orthodox Churches (other than a few, very, very minor religious differences) to be political and not religious. (Orthodox Church members are allowed to receive Communion at Mass, for example)

    The Orthodox Church still hasn't totally forgiven us for what happened though.
  • TV's Vinnie: Seeing as how some of the muslim-y muslims have a thing for wanting to destroy stuff that isn't of islam, I'd say let them go pound sand.


    Turkey's about as moderate as they come.
  • The article says that "Arab forces who occupied Myra in the 11th century excavated the bones and brought them back to the Italian port of Bari where they are buried to this day." Presumably Arab Muslim forces. If so he was donated, not stolen.

    That's not the legend the Wikipedia article cites, according to that "sailors from Bari in Apulia seized part of the remains of the saint from his burial church in Myra, over the objections of the Orthodox monks," but if that's the case they rescued the relic from Muslims who had no religious use for them.

    In either case the fact remains that bones of a Christian saint lie entombed at a Christian shrine. Where better?

    Personally I don't give a damn, I'm an atheist who was raised Methodist, but fair's fair: they can have this Christian relic when Baptists can make the pilgrimage to Mecca.
  • Seth'n'Spectrum: hdhale: Actually...it didn't. The Pope called a Crusade to the Holy Land. It was western Europeans nobles that decided to attack Constantinople instead.

    Rockstone: Actually, the Pope ordered the Crusaders not to sack Constantinople. The order did not reach them in time.

    True, but the pope did kind of set the whole chain of events in motion and indirectly allowed the nobles to legitimate it.

    /come on, stretch with me here


    Explains the excommunications....
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